CWU : Ballot papers start to land from today : BUSINESS RECOVERY, TRANSFORMATION AND GROWTH AGREEMENT - CWU MEMBERS BALLOT - VOTE YES

[fallenworld2022]

i think it will be a yes vote, a bit like the scottish independence referendum,was a lot thinking it was going be independence but the silent majority won in the end, same result here silent majority ticking that yes box, wouldn't suprise me

[Anon14]

Sorry Dave I just can't do that.

Voted No. My conscience is clear even if my frame is not.

[Woody Guthrie]

I doubt anyone can have such a clear conscience over this.
Both outcomes will have an affect on our colleagues, our friends and our families that we'll all have to live with.

It's not the kind of vote that you can walk away from knowing you've done the right thing unless you're not the sort of person who worries about the consequences of your actions.

[Geordiepapa]

YES. Vote with what your head tells you based on the facts that the CWU have presented. Don't vote based on your anger. RM have been right up for this dispute. They wanted it as opportunity to reduce union involvement with a view to dividing the workforce. Anyone with a single brain cell knows that RM will not re-negotiate anything. Unofficial action is against the law and anyone involved will be summarily sacked. Think seriously not in anger but in cold logic.

If it’s a no vote (which every poll has indicated it is likely to be) and RM try to push the changes through regardless

Then it is not unlawful to refuse to accept those terms

If RM try to sack you for not accepting those terms then it will go to a tribunal

As many people took the job on because of the hours a tribunal is likely to rule that your job is no longer recognisable as the job you originally applied for

And so if Royal Mail wanted to get rid of you they would have to make you redundant

If we all stick together do you think Royal Mail could afford to make everyone redundant??

Vote no

Absolute nonsense.

Dealing with problems

Problems can arise if:

an employer tries to change a contract without agreement, or re-employs someone on new terms and conditions
there is a breach of contract where one of the terms in a contract is broken (for example an employer does not pay agreed wages or employees do not work agreed hours)
Solving disputes
Employers and their staff should try to solve disputes about contract changes by talking informally or through mediation.

Employees can also get advice about changing a contract from:

their trade union representative (if they’re a member of a union)
Citizen’s Advice
Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service)
In Northern Ireland, they can get advice from the Labour Relations Agency (LRA) .

Acas helpline
Telephone: 0300 123 1100
Textphone: 18001 0300 123 1100
Monday to Friday, 8am to 6pm
Find out about call charges

LRA helpline
Telephone: 03300 555 300
Monday to Friday, 9am to 5pm
Find out about call charges

If the problem cannot be solved, employers or employees may have the right to take legal action. It’s important to get advice first because legal action can be expensive. Trade union members may be able to get legal advice from their union.

Making a change without agreement
If an employer makes a change to a contract without getting agreement (including by using flexibility clauses unreasonably), employees may:

have the right to refuse to work under the new conditions
say that they’re working any new terms under protest, and are treating the change as a breach of contract
resign and claim constructive dismissal
be able to take a case to an employment tribunal
In


Got this from GOV.uk anyone can look it up before they dismiss someone’s post as nonsense

I’m betting the CWU legal team has more expertise than googling when it comes to employment law. Why do you think they are telling you to vote for this deal if a no vote results in the status quo being maintained?

Change is happening regardless. See how far you get fighting it without union support.

CWU Legal team, hmmmmm, yep they know what they're doing . And I think you'll find that the info. on gov.uk website is actual law and not just Mr Google's say so.

[LouBarlow]

YES. Vote with what your head tells you based on the facts that the CWU have presented. Don't vote based on your anger. RM have been right up for this dispute. They wanted it as opportunity to reduce union involvement with a view to dividing the workforce. Anyone with a single brain cell knows that RM will not re-negotiate anything. Unofficial action is against the law and anyone involved will be summarily sacked. Think seriously not in anger but in cold logic.

If it’s a no vote (which every poll has indicated it is likely to be) and RM try to push the changes through regardless

Then it is not unlawful to refuse to accept those terms

If RM try to sack you for not accepting those terms then it will go to a tribunal

As many people took the job on because of the hours a tribunal is likely to rule that your job is no longer recognisable as the job you originally applied for

And so if Royal Mail wanted to get rid of you they would have to make you redundant

If we all stick together do you think Royal Mail could afford to make everyone redundant??

Vote no

Absolute nonsense.

Dealing with problems

Problems can arise if:

an employer tries to change a contract without agreement, or re-employs someone on new terms and conditions
there is a breach of contract where one of the terms in a contract is broken (for example an employer does not pay agreed wages or employees do not work agreed hours)
Solving disputes
Employers and their staff should try to solve disputes about contract changes by talking informally or through mediation.

Employees can also get advice about changing a contract from:

their trade union representative (if they’re a member of a union)
Citizen’s Advice
Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service)
In Northern Ireland, they can get advice from the Labour Relations Agency (LRA) .

Acas helpline
Telephone: 0300 123 1100
Textphone: 18001 0300 123 1100
Monday to Friday, 8am to 6pm
Find out about call charges

LRA helpline
Telephone: 03300 555 300
Monday to Friday, 9am to 5pm
Find out about call charges

If the problem cannot be solved, employers or employees may have the right to take legal action. It’s important to get advice first because legal action can be expensive. Trade union members may be able to get legal advice from their union.

Making a change without agreement
If an employer makes a change to a contract without getting agreement (including by using flexibility clauses unreasonably), employees may:

have the right to refuse to work under the new conditions
say that they’re working any new terms under protest, and are treating the change as a breach of contract
resign and claim constructive dismissal
be able to take a case to an employment tribunal
In


Got this from GOV.uk anyone can look it up before they dismiss someone’s post as nonsense

I’m betting the CWU legal team has more expertise than googling when it comes to employment law. Why do you think they are telling you to vote for this deal if a no vote results in the status quo being maintained?

Change is happening regardless. See how far you get fighting it without union support.

CWU Legal team, hmmmmm, yep they know what they're doing . And I think you'll find that the info. on gov.uk website is actual law and not just Mr Google's say so.

Ah that’s good to know. Care to point out the specific statutes on the government website that are relevant to the discussion?

[Woody Guthrie]

Genuinely people don't vote on the basis of employment law protecting you.
That's f***ing scary s**t.

There is no employment law police who'll come crashing through the door and arrest Royal Mail management or serve them with a cease and desist order.
It's civil law, you have to do all the heavy lifting and the paying and take all the risks.

Employment tribunals are a f***ing lottery at the best of times and even if you win they can't force Royal Mail to row back on your t&cs or even give you your job back. At best you might end up with a couple of grand minus your no win no fee lawyers slice.

If you want to vote no that's fine but don't do it because you think the law is on your side.
It isn't.

[Anon14]

I doubt anyone can have such a clear conscience over this.
Both outcomes will have an affect on our colleagues, our friends and our families that we'll all have to live with.

It's not the kind of vote that you can walk away from knowing you've done the right thing unless you're not the sort of person who worries about the consequences of your actions.

It IS that kind of vote to me. Vote yes to accept the insulting lump sum (recovering the money lost from the pathetic, misguided, ineffective 1 & 2 day strikes). Vote Yes for the real terms pay cut after inflation and rising cost of living. Vote Yes for the decimation of your Terms and Conditions of employment, later start/finish times, worse sick pay, ihr, seasonal hours.

Vote no to reject the above and keep fighting for a better deal.

Remember the best and final offer(s).
Remember the company posting record profits after Covid during which we all slogged our guts out while the rest of the country sat at home ordering crap and making tik tok videos?
Remember when they gave away all the proceeds of our hard work to wealthy shareholders and threw us some crumby 2% pay rise?
Remember when they spent all that money on replacing our fleet with EV's and installing the infrastructure in all the delivery offices, training staff to drive them to then turn around and drastically reduce the number?
Remember when they spent all that money on new uniforms which half the workforce have yet to receive?
Remember when they made 10,000 people redundant, lost hundreds of workers due to "natural attrition" and removed an exorbitant amount of hours from delivery offices (and plan on removing more)? They're still failing the USO on the daily, blaming it on sick absence (now they can no longer use the excuse of Covid or Industrial Action) even though it's blatantly obvious we are grossly under staffed and the revisions are untenable. They're also clearing offices ONLY on the days when they're being inspected which is infuriating.

Royal Mail are lying to Parliamentary committees, to local MP's, to the media and public and to OFCOM. What makes you think they aren't lying to our union leaders?

I, like many others, have lost confidence in our union leadership and obviously I don't know what will happen if the majority votes no. However, I will not be scared into submission with empty threats of company administration and I will not vote for a terrible deal just because Royal Mail is run by greedy, self serving a*holes who make bad decision after bad decision, treat it's employees like robotic donkeys and our union leaders appear to have capitulated to protect their grossly inflated annual wages.

So yes, my conscience is clear. We are the union, not Dave Ward and his lackeys. We deserve better and it's a fight worth fighting. Yes it has dragged on far too long partly due to our weak leadership and partly due to Royal Mail running down the clock, but it's too important to give in now and accept this terrible deal.

[postslippete]

I'm not against an agreement but it has to be one that doesn't decimate out terms and cons and makes our working lives unbearable going forward with marathon duties that most posties can't complete just so that it lines the pockets of the shareholders and the management team with bonuses for failing the USO on a daily basis

[Foxel]

I doubt anyone can have such a clear conscience over this.
Both outcomes will have an affect on our colleagues, our friends and our families that we'll all have to live with.

It's not the kind of vote that you can walk away from knowing you've done the right thing unless you're not the sort of person who worries about the consequences of your actions.

I can claim an absolute clear conscience, with 0 doubt in myself. Even if in the short term a loss can be felt one should always strive for the rights and ideals that set society on a greater path. As Marcus Aurelius said, “Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish.”

[Woody Guthrie]

Vote Yes for the real terms pay cut after inflation and rising cost of living. Vote Yes for the decimation of your Terms and Conditions of employment, later start/finish times, worse sick pay, ihr, seasonal hours.

Vote no to reject the above and keep fighting for a better deal.

You list all of the negatives of the deal.
You list none of the positives.

You turn voting no into a one sentence soundbite as if it's a thing that can only be positive and cannot be negative.

Are you a politician by any chance?

What we both know is that voting no is not rejecting the above, it is in effect going back to Royal Mail cap in hand and begging for more, asking to renegotiate an agreement and hoping that Royal Mail want an agreement enough not to just rip this up and move on.

You talk about fighting for a better deal, better on what front? More money? Less later starts? More acceptable seasonal hours? IHR3, sick absence? All of the above?

Let's say by some miracle all of the stars line up, someone can be found from HQ that you do have confidence in, The members can be persuaded to get back behind a union they've largely lost faith in. Royal Mail do decide to renegotiate even though they've said they won't what cost would be acceptable to you?

We are hopefully not naive enough to believe that any fresh concessions would come for free and the price so far has been very steep so let's step away from the tub thumping although largely empty rhetoric and talk about the nitty gritty of negotiating.

Which terms and conditions would you be prepared to sacrifice to achieve this "better deal"?
How long should the members be prepared to wait for a pay rise?
How many fresh days of strike action should they be prepared to take and how much more should they be prepared to lose?

What should the cost of war be?

I'm not asking you what will happen after a no vote, I'm asking you what would be an acceptable outcome, both positive and negative because we live in the real world.

A "better deal" won't cut it, to bring the members back on side after everything they've already been through they would need to know exactly what they were fighting for so they could judge whether they believe it's justified.

[LouBarlow]

Royal Mail are lying to Parliamentary committees, to local MP's, to the media and public and to OFCOM. What makes you think they aren't lying to our union leaders?

Lying about what? And what evidence do you have to back this up? Evidence that RM, the CWU, the PEC and the independent arbitrators involved in negotiations aren’t privy to.

[Nickvilla20]

The parliamentary committee was a charade at best yes it did show up Thompson for what he was but it really didn’t have any baring to where we are now.

Ofcom aren’t interested either about the quality of service or the workforce and the only reason the government won’t reduce the USO is because we are close to a general election.

[freespeech]

Vote Yes for the real terms pay cut after inflation and rising cost of living. Vote Yes for the decimation of your Terms and Conditions of employment, later start/finish times, worse sick pay, ihr, seasonal hours.

Vote no to reject the above and keep fighting for a better deal.

You list all of the negatives of the deal.
You list none of the positives.

You turn voting no into a one sentence soundbite as if it's a thing that can only be positive and cannot be negative.

Are you a politician by any chance?

What we both know is that voting no is not rejecting the above, it is in effect going back to Royal Mail cap in hand and begging for more, asking to renegotiate an agreement and hoping that Royal Mail want an agreement enough not to just rip this up and move on.

You talk about fighting for a better deal, better on what front? More money? Less later starts? More acceptable seasonal hours? IHR3, sick absence? All of the above?

Let's say by some miracle all of the stars line up, someone can be found from HQ that you do have confidence in, The members can be persuaded to get back behind a union they've largely lost faith in. Royal Mail do decide to renegotiate even though they've said they won't what cost would be acceptable to you?

We are hopefully not naive enough to believe that any fresh concessions would come for free and the price so far has been very steep so let's step away from the tub thumping although largely empty rhetoric and talk about the nitty gritty of negotiating.

Which terms and conditions would you be prepared to sacrifice to achieve this "better deal"?
How long should the members be prepared to wait for a pay rise?
How many fresh days of strike action should they be prepared to take and how much more should they be prepared to lose?

What should the cost of war be?

I'm not asking you what will happen after a no vote, I'm asking you what would be an acceptable outcome, both positive and negative because we live in the real world.

A "better deal" won't cut it, to bring the members back on side after everything they've already been through they would need to know exactly what they were fighting for so they could judge whether they believe it's justified.

Absolutely.......spot.........on.

[Jen1]

You list all of the negatives of the deal.
You list none of the positives.

Sorry @Woody Guthrie but for some of us there aren’t any good points to this deal

They might be offering a increase in pay rate but because of the hours many of us won’t be able to work overtime, some of us will have to give up our second jobs and others will have to fork out for childcare so we’ll actually have less money

This deal might work for you but not everyone is in the same situation as you are

And let’s be honest Royal Mail is desperately trying to save money on its biggest expense, us!!, so we’re not going to come out of this with more money in our pockets are we?!? Unless of course they make even more people redundant and increase our workload even further and I hope our union wouldn’t be endorsing that??

I’m voting no because the deal is crap, the only reason I’d vote yes would be to take the lump sum and leave which I don’t want to do because I love this job

[Woody Guthrie]

This deal might work for you but not everyone is in the same situation as you are

This deal doesn't work for me but the alternative works even less.
I'm not prepared to pretend to myself that there's some "better deal" out there that Royal Mail have been keeping up their sleeves for just this occasion.

The alternative to this agreement will be messy and dangerous and will more than likely end in a more "crap" situation for both of us.

What then?

Will the no voters hold their hands up and say sorry we screwed up your terms and conditions Woody or will they continue to have a "clear conscience"?