I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[tommyrep]

Il do as i please thankyou very much.

You are on your own.

Don't take anymore bait Jetblack. We all know the working class strikebreaker is low- as is well documented.
Unfortunately within our work colleagues there are a few likewise thinkers as urban cowboy.
Self centred and unable to see the bigger picture. Any supporter of RMs super offer cannot see the thin end of the wedge driven in to split the workers. A massive YES is the only hope we have, anything less than supporting ALL the 4 pillar stance is committing suicide. RM will take great delight in future dealings with the CWU, knowing the have won against a spineless cowardly workforce. ALL T@Cs confined to history and they will have a downtrodden slave staff, lucky to have a zero hour contract job. Well done cowboy !

[jetblack]

Don't take anymore bait Jetblack. We all know the working class scab is lower than vermin - as is well documented.
Unfortunately within our work colleagues there are a few likewise thinkers as urban cowboy.
Self centred and unable to see the bigger picture. Any supporter of RMs super offer cannot see the thin end of the wedge driven in to split the workers. A massive YES is the only hope we have, anything less than supporting ALL the 4 pillar stance is committing suicide. RM will take great delight in future dealings with the CWU, knowing the have won against a spineless cowardly workforce. ALL T@Cs confined to history and they will have a downtrodden slave staff, lucky to have a zero hour contract job. Well done cowboy !

[Tman]

You disagree with this poster therefore you are a troll.
That's how the theory often works on here, although how he (or indeed, anyone) could call for the expulsion of "non-strikers" from the union is nothing short of a nasty fantasy.
That said, the current version of the Labour Party has a similar ethos at it's core, the party which he constantly champions on RMC.
Sad days when individuals' opinions have led/ could lead to sanctions in some way....all rather reminiscent of Stalinist USSR but that's almost certainly no coincidence in this poster's case.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

yawn. You sound like a broken record. I get it. You like saying social contract. Democratic mandate. Cool. Doesnt mean anything. Il do as i please thankyou very much. Maybe I will leave. Maybe alot of others will leave also based off your suggestions. Less money for the CWU in the long run. All this talk of solidarity but its nowhere to be seen any other time. Im alright jack. What is so hard for you to understand. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE UNIONS CURRENT POSITION SO I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT!

I'll probably get a yawn as well but hey ho, I am at least trying to understand your position. But in this post, you are saying you won't show solidarity because you haven't been shown it in the past. You are then perpetuating what you see, quite rightly, as an injustice.

I've been let down by the Union, I've voted against proposals that I saw as not benefiting all workers in my office, but it was carried anyway. I have also voted against national proposals that I didn't agree with. However, I firmly believe Solidarity is an acceptance of the will of the majority, you either accept it and its consequences or you don't. But certainly its unfair and selfish to say I won't show solidarity because I didn't get it the past, my nephews gave up the "its not fair" argument shortly after leaving their teens, that comment isn't meant as personal and please don't take it that way but that's how it strikes me.

[Danelectro]

You are correct. That is another false analogy. The captain in that scenario is more likely the DOM

As far as I know Bly never played football so try again.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Ok has everyone decided to ignore the rules or what.

Please use the report feature of someone uses the term Troll, DO NOT continue to expand the problem by quoting it and responding to it.

If you think someone is a troll then ignore them, if they are they will get bored and go away.

If you suspect anyone of trolling do not respond to their posts as this will only encourage them. Most internet trolls post objectionable material or opinions just to get a reaction, if members do not respond then a troll will get bored and leave. If you believe a member is trolling then PM Postman or one of the Moderators.

Also the terms Scab, whilst I personally believe it's a historical description rather than a term of abuse, Royal Mail has deemed it differently, therefore to protect members we added a specific rule:

Specifically, regarding the term 'scab'. It does have an historical meaning in some circles, but it can also be seen as abuse by others. Therefore members are requested to use the more acceptable term of 'Strike Breaker'

[UrbanPirate]

yawn. You sound like a broken record. I get it. You like saying social contract. Democratic mandate. Cool. Doesnt mean anything. Il do as i please thankyou very much. Maybe I will leave. Maybe alot of others will leave also based off your suggestions. Less money for the CWU in the long run. All this talk of solidarity but its nowhere to be seen any other time. Im alright jack. What is so hard for you to understand. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE UNIONS CURRENT POSITION SO I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT!

I'll probably get a yawn as well but hey ho, I am at least trying to understand your position. But in this post, you are saying you won't show solidarity because you haven't been shown it in the past. You are then perpetuating what you see, quite rightly, as an injustice.

I've been let down by the Union, I've voted against proposals that I saw as not benefiting all workers in my office, but it was carried anyway. I have also voted against national proposals that I didn't agree with. However, I firmly believe Solidarity is an acceptance of the will of the majority, you either accept it and its consequences or you don't. But certainly its unfair and selfish to say I won't show solidarity because I didn't get it the past, my nephews gave up the "its not fair" argument shortly after leaving their teens, that comment isn't meant as personal and please don't take it that way but that's how it strikes me.

You are putting words in my mouth and I think you know thats not what I meant. I was merely pointing out that this solidarity lark that is being spouted is all a hypocrisy. Im being quite the opposite you'll find, honest with my opinion and intentions all to be called a "Troll" and "vermin" Charming really. Its not lack of past solidarity that is my gripe. I just do not agree with the union pushing us to strike action over these proposals.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

They aren't pushing its a free vote, and I hope you have voted, even if it was a Yes vote.

Also the Union won't push you to strike, they'll announce a strike and hopefully most members will respect that call.

However, the final decision to strike or cross the picket line is up to each individual, the CWU and your colleagues cannot force you to strike. Just like you can't force them to respect your decision if it goes against the mandate of the vote.

Its like remainers (I was one) that have morphed into Bromoaners, I disagree with the choice made, but we have to accept the decision and support brexit. The argument shouldn't be if we should leave but how we leave now.

As to the strike breakers and Troll comments I am and have been trying to deal with them but I just got from the hospital so it's taking me time to catch up. The real world gets in the way sometimes.

[Lounge Lizard]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

That is the total opposite of democracy FFS!

Steve,
Yes, if 55% vote Conservative and 45% vote Labour in a General election then us 45% would be totally within our rights to not pay taxes to the Tory government as we don't like what they are offering.

Guys, just no. False analogy.


Your first mistake is thinking business is in any form Democratic. Its not.
Your second mistake is to think that the CWU have any legal basis to force me not to work. They do not.
Your third mistake is to think that I work for the CWU. Incorrect. I work for RM. RM works for its shareholders. Its shareholders want profits. Its RM who pays me, with those profits. Where as I pay the CWU to represent me! Perhaps not for long as the level of debate and intellect shown here by its members really does shine a light on it as an institution. Yeh they do some good, but they are also capable of doing damage. Which they will do now. Change averse, but businesses must change to maintain competitiveness.

People saying that people shouldn't be aloud the benefits the union get us if they don't support them. Well how about these same people should be the first to go if they do irreversible damage to the business due to this strike action? Sounds about right?

if 55% vote Conservative and 45% vote Labour in a General election then us 45% would be totally within our rights to not pay taxes to the Tory government as we don't like what they are offering.

You all need to get this analogy out of your heads because it doesn't compare.

A trades union is a team of workers that is more effective than however many individuals, the union leaders representing and acting on behalf of the workers.
If you were in a football team might we assume that, if you disagreed with him, you would often take no notice of the captain who is there for the benefit of all team members ?
And if that's another "false analogy" I'll come up with a different one.

You are correct. That is another false analogy. The captain in that scenario is more likely the DOM not the CWU. Try again...

No, not false as the captain is "primus inter pares" whereas the DOM is the manager.
If someone as self centred as you has actually found someone to settle down with is your version of family life your wife and children having to agree with you, and if they dare disagree being beaten to a pulp until they change their mind ?

[banner]

yawn. You sound like a broken record. I get it. You like saying social contract. Democratic mandate. Cool. Doesnt mean anything. Il do as i please thankyou very much. Maybe I will leave. Maybe alot of others will leave also based off your suggestions. Less money for the CWU in the long run. All this talk of solidarity but its nowhere to be seen any other time. Im alright jack. What is so hard for you to understand. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE UNIONS CURRENT POSITION SO I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT!

I'll probably get a yawn as well but hey ho, I am at least trying to understand your position. But in this post, you are saying you won't show solidarity because you haven't been shown it in the past. You are then perpetuating what you see, quite rightly, as an injustice.

I've been let down by the Union, I've voted against proposals that I saw as not benefiting all workers in my office, but it was carried anyway. I have also voted against national proposals that I didn't agree with. However, I firmly believe Solidarity is an acceptance of the will of the majority, you either accept it and its consequences or you don't. But certainly its unfair and selfish to say I won't show solidarity because I didn't get it the past, my nephews gave up the "its not fair" argument shortly after leaving their teens, that comment isn't meant as personal and please don't take it that way but that's how it strikes me.

You are putting words in my mouth and I think you know thats not what I meant. I was merely pointing out that this solidarity lark that is being spouted is all a hypocrisy. Im being quite the opposite you'll find, honest with my opinion and intentions all to be called a "Troll" and "vermin" Charming really. Its not lack of past solidarity that is my gripe. I just do not agree with the union pushing us to strike action over these proposals.

I haven't called you any such names and don't think you are a troll or vermin. I am not trying to understand your position with regards to Royal mail's proposal, you have made some good points and striking is risky there is no doubt, but I am trying to understand your position with regards to being a member of a union.
You say you disagree with the union leadership regarding this issue which is a completely personal issue. You must agree that whenever a dispute like this arises, there must be a vote to ascertain as to whether the membership agrees with the union leadership position regarding a dispute?
Then at the last second you say you'd disregard the views of the membership if it didn't coincide with yours.

I get that supporting a strike you didn't agree with, and that you believe will have long term damage to the business is a tough pill to swallow but have you considered that if there was a no vote, but the yes voters decided to strike against the democratic will of the majority, would that be okay?
Also, if a yes vote was undermined by strike breakers, aren't those people undermining the rest and putting their t&c's at risk because a broken strike could result in an emboldened business looking to cut costs further?

[UrbanPirate]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

That is the total opposite of democracy FFS!

Steve,
Yes, if 55% vote Conservative and 45% vote Labour in a General election then us 45% would be totally within our rights to not pay taxes to the Tory government as we don't like what they are offering.

Guys, just no. False analogy.


Your first mistake is thinking business is in any form Democratic. Its not.
Your second mistake is to think that the CWU have any legal basis to force me not to work. They do not.
Your third mistake is to think that I work for the CWU. Incorrect. I work for RM. RM works for its shareholders. Its shareholders want profits. Its RM who pays me, with those profits. Where as I pay the CWU to represent me! Perhaps not for long as the level of debate and intellect shown here by its members really does shine a light on it as an institution. Yeh they do some good, but they are also capable of doing damage. Which they will do now. Change averse, but businesses must change to maintain competitiveness.

People saying that people shouldn't be aloud the benefits the union get us if they don't support them. Well how about these same people should be the first to go if they do irreversible damage to the business due to this strike action? Sounds about right?

if 55% vote Conservative and 45% vote Labour in a General election then us 45% would be totally within our rights to not pay taxes to the Tory government as we don't like what they are offering.

You all need to get this analogy out of your heads because it doesn't compare.

A trades union is a team of workers that is more effective than however many individuals, the union leaders representing and acting on behalf of the workers.
If you were in a football team might we assume that, if you disagreed with him, you would often take no notice of the captain who is there for the benefit of all team members ?
And if that's another "false analogy" I'll come up with a different one.

You are correct. That is another false analogy. The captain in that scenario is more likely the DOM not the CWU. Try again...

No, not false as the captain is "primus inter pares" whereas the DOM is the manager.
If someone as self centred as you has actually found someone to settle down with is your version of family life your wife and children having to agree with you, and if they dare disagree being beaten to a pulp until they change their mind ?

What on earth are chatting!?

[steve1873]

Yes Royal Mail pay your wages. Wages that were partly secured due to the collective bargaining of the CWU, along with the same terms & conditions that Royal Mail has spent the best part of 3 months telling us are the best in the industry. None of that was secured simply down to Royal Mail being a benevolent employer. It was down to the sacrifices made by men and women who went before us.

By opting to be a member of a trade union, you are de-facto agreeing to be part of that collective bargaining and it is assumed that you will abide by any democratic process involved, whether that be the election of your unit representative, or in this case supporting your union in ticking a box and acknowledging that you are willing to take strike action if Royal Mail continue to shy away from any kind of serious negotiation on the issues that will affect all of us going forward. No, clearly you can tick that no box - that is your prerogative. However, you are not saying that. You are saying you will work through any stike action because you do not agree with it. That is fundamentally the opposite of democracy.

By saying you will not abide by the democratic process, whether you agree or not, you are actually undermining everything that trade unionism stands for. As such, I would like to invite you to cancel your union subs as I do not believe you are entitled to the benefits that your membership brings!

[UrbanPirate]

yawn. You sound like a broken record. I get it. You like saying social contract. Democratic mandate. Cool. Doesnt mean anything. Il do as i please thankyou very much. Maybe I will leave. Maybe alot of others will leave also based off your suggestions. Less money for the CWU in the long run. All this talk of solidarity but its nowhere to be seen any other time. Im alright jack. What is so hard for you to understand. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE UNIONS CURRENT POSITION SO I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT!

I'll probably get a yawn as well but hey ho, I am at least trying to understand your position. But in this post, you are saying you won't show solidarity because you haven't been shown it in the past. You are then perpetuating what you see, quite rightly, as an injustice.

I've been let down by the Union, I've voted against proposals that I saw as not benefiting all workers in my office, but it was carried anyway. I have also voted against national proposals that I didn't agree with. However, I firmly believe Solidarity is an acceptance of the will of the majority, you either accept it and its consequences or you don't. But certainly its unfair and selfish to say I won't show solidarity because I didn't get it the past, my nephews gave up the "its not fair" argument shortly after leaving their teens, that comment isn't meant as personal and please don't take it that way but that's how it strikes me.

You are putting words in my mouth and I think you know thats not what I meant. I was merely pointing out that this solidarity lark that is being spouted is all a hypocrisy. Im being quite the opposite you'll find, honest with my opinion and intentions all to be called a "Troll" and "vermin" Charming really. Its not lack of past solidarity that is my gripe. I just do not agree with the union pushing us to strike action over these proposals.

I haven't called you any such names and don't think you are a troll or vermin. I am not trying to understand your position with regards to Royal mail's proposal, you have made some good points and striking is risky there is no doubt, but I am trying to understand your position with regards to being a member of a union.
You say you disagree with the union leadership regarding this issue which is a completely personal issue. You must agree that whenever a dispute like this arises, there must be a vote to ascertain as to whether the membership agrees with the union leadership position regarding a dispute?
Then at the last second you say you'd disregard the views of the membership if it didn't coincide with yours.

I get that supporting a strike you didn't agree with, and that you believe will have long term damage to the business is a tough pill to swallow but have you considered that if there was a no vote, but the yes voters decided to strike against the democratic will of the majority, would that be okay?
Also, if a yes vote was undermined by strike breakers, aren't those people undermining the rest and putting their t&c's at risk because a broken strike could result in an emboldened business looking to cut costs further?

If yes voters decided to strike in the result of a no vote they wouldn't get far anyway. What little leverage they have would be greatly diminished by their few in numbers striking. Plus, Wild cat strikes do happen without a ballet. The reps are more than happy to undermine democracy on them. The ballot is a vote of confidence for the union to call upon its members to strike. They can call upon me as much as they like but if i believe what they are doing will be detrimental to the business and security of my job then I will not follow orders as I do not want them to succeed.

You talk about the risks of a broken strike but that is for the union to think long and hard about. Do they want to risk taking people down this road and like you say face an emboldened business. Well, unfortunately even with strike action I believe RM will win what ever a win will look like and it will embolden them massively. Its all If's and Buts and for every argument I hear you could easily flip it on its head.

Everything else I could add here I have already said a dozen times.

[UrbanPirate]

Yes Royal Mail pay your wages. Wages that were partly secured due to the collective bargaining of the CWU, along with the same terms & conditions that Royal Mail has spent the best part of 3 months telling us are the best in the industry. None of that was secured simply down to Royal Mail being a benevolent employer. It was down to the sacrifices made by men and women who went before us.

By opting to be a member of a trade union, you are de-facto agreeing to be part of that collective bargaining and it is assumed that you will abide by any democratic process involved, whether that be the election of your unit representative, or in this case supporting your union in ticking a box and acknowledging that you are willing to take strike action if Royal Mail continue to shy away from any kind of serious negotiation on the issues that will affect all of us going forward. No, clearly you can tick that no box - that is your prerogative. However, you are not saying that. You are saying you will work through any stike action because you do not agree with it. That is fundamentally the opposite of democracy.

By saying you will not abide by the democratic process, whether you agree or not, you are actually undermining everything that trade unionism stands for. As such, I would like to invite you to cancel your union subs as I do not believe you are entitled to the benefits that your membership brings!

Cancelled it. What have you achieved? With attitudes like yours the socialist ideal will never be realised. The with us or against us mentality just highlights just how nasty and bitter you all are. Democracy is having the freedom to do what you feel is right. Not press ganged into striking by mob rule. I have supported the union in the past and probably would again in the future but on this occasion I do not. Lemmings.

[banner]

yawn. You sound like a broken record. I get it. You like saying social contract. Democratic mandate. Cool. Doesnt mean anything. Il do as i please thankyou very much. Maybe I will leave. Maybe alot of others will leave also based off your suggestions. Less money for the CWU in the long run. All this talk of solidarity but its nowhere to be seen any other time. Im alright jack. What is so hard for you to understand. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE UNIONS CURRENT POSITION SO I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT!

I'll probably get a yawn as well but hey ho, I am at least trying to understand your position. But in this post, you are saying you won't show solidarity because you haven't been shown it in the past. You are then perpetuating what you see, quite rightly, as an injustice.

I've been let down by the Union, I've voted against proposals that I saw as not benefiting all workers in my office, but it was carried anyway. I have also voted against national proposals that I didn't agree with. However, I firmly believe Solidarity is an acceptance of the will of the majority, you either accept it and its consequences or you don't. But certainly its unfair and selfish to say I won't show solidarity because I didn't get it the past, my nephews gave up the "its not fair" argument shortly after leaving their teens, that comment isn't meant as personal and please don't take it that way but that's how it strikes me.

You are putting words in my mouth and I think you know thats not what I meant. I was merely pointing out that this solidarity lark that is being spouted is all a hypocrisy. Im being quite the opposite you'll find, honest with my opinion and intentions all to be called a "Troll" and "vermin" Charming really. Its not lack of past solidarity that is my gripe. I just do not agree with the union pushing us to strike action over these proposals.

I haven't called you any such names and don't think you are a troll or vermin. I am not trying to understand your position with regards to Royal mail's proposal, you have made some good points and striking is risky there is no doubt, but I am trying to understand your position with regards to being a member of a union.
You say you disagree with the union leadership regarding this issue which is a completely personal issue. You must agree that whenever a dispute like this arises, there must be a vote to ascertain as to whether the membership agrees with the union leadership position regarding a dispute?
Then at the last second you say you'd disregard the views of the membership if it didn't coincide with yours.

I get that supporting a strike you didn't agree with, and that you believe will have long term damage to the business is a tough pill to swallow but have you considered that if there was a no vote, but the yes voters decided to strike against the democratic will of the majority, would that be okay?
Also, if a yes vote was undermined by strike breakers, aren't those people undermining the rest and putting their t&c's at risk because a broken strike could result in an emboldened business looking to cut costs further?

If yes voters decided to strike in the result of a no vote they wouldn't get far anyway. What little leverage they have would be greatly diminished by their few in numbers striking. Plus, Wild cat strikes do happen without a ballet. The reps are more than happy to undermine democracy on them. The ballot is a vote of confidence for the union to call upon its members to strike. They can call upon me as much as they like but if i believe what they are doing will be detrimental to the business and security of my job then I will not follow orders as I do not want them to succeed.

You talk about the risks of a broken strike but that is for the union to think long and hard about. Do they want to risk taking people down this road and like you say face an emboldened business. Well, unfortunately even with strike action I believe RM will win what ever a win will look like and it will embolden them massively. Its all If's and Buts and for every argument I hear you could easily flip it on its head.

Everything else I could add here I have already said a dozen times.

Can I ask you this. If part of the deal on the table was a 5% pay cut to all royal mail employees instead of the 1.5% rise, would your position be the same? All the same arguments you have made would apply as to risking the business etc....