BBC Article on Salary by Occupation...

[baldrick]

Yes, I can see they're from the ONS (the same ONS that predicted the election result so spectacularly incorrectly...

Most if not all polling organisations predicted the election results spectacularly incorrectly. So did you. And Theresa May.
All underestimated the 'Corbyn effect'.

And the figures from the ONS are actual statistics, not predictions.

[Tman]

Still waiting for evidence of "plummeting" wages though...

[stan_lers]

Still waiting for evidence of "plummeting" wages though...

If you're that immune to facts then why should anybody bother? The 2nd and 3rd graphs on the last page clearly show wages falling and inflation soaring. What more evidence do you want?

Our wages at RM haven't dropped, but our real-term pay has because everything is more expensive while we're earning the same. Also, RM wants to get rid of legacy payments, reduce sick pay, reduce conditions for new starters etc. Those are all a drop in earnings, and there are plenty more companies that have already done this.

"My payslip is still the same, so UK wages haven't changed" - you can't seriously believe that?

[Tman]

"My payslip is still the same, so UK wages haven't changed" - you can't seriously believe that?

No, and I've said as much above re inflation.
But you said "wages have plummeted" and you can't seriously believe that.
The graphs posted don't show that anything's plummeted either.

[stan_lers]

So essentially the argument is semantics, because it's "real wages" that have fallen?

And as I said, with the loss of legacy payments, sick pay etc, that's still a direct cut to wages, real or otherwise. Plenty of workers outside of RM have suffered that, as shown by the fall in nominal wages in the charts.

[baldrick]

Also a lot of full time jobs have been replaced by part time jobs, so the wages of those employees will be less than those previously employed.

[Tman]

"stan_lers"]So essentially the argument is semantics,

No it isn't. You claimed (somewhat theatrically) that wages have "plummeted" and then posted graphs which actually disproved that exaggerated assertion.
The usual terms are "BS" or "fake news" rather than semantics.
We deserve a pay rise, no question about that, but there's no need to over-egg it with such nonsensical claims.

[stan_lers]

I never made any of those claims, or posted the graphs.

The evidence (that you asked for, after it had already been posted) shows a 2% real drop in wages in less than a year. You can argue what the word 'plummeted' means but either way that's a big drop. You mentioned Greece, and while we're not quite as bad as them, we do come next out of all the OECD countries for the worst wage growth:

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/wp-content ... 60x249.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tman]

That's a TUC blog, but leaving that potential bias aside, as any stats-gatherer will readily admit, the results will always reflect the question actually asked and the sample responders.
Posting links to a snapshot graph is meaningless without all the info of who what and how, etc.
RM like to give pie charts and bar graphs in attempts to reinforce their continual propaganda messages, and they're largely ignored as being seeded too.
Anything's "provable" with stats, especially when the fine print is omitted.

[stan_lers]

You don't do surveys to work out inflation. When every single source and every single study says that inflation is rising and wages are falling or at best stagnant, then it's probably safe to assume that they're correct.

But I've seen enough of your posts before to know that you'll do anything to convince yourself that black is white if you disagree with it, so you can believe what you want; it doesn't change the fact that real-term income and purchasing power is falling for most UK workers.

[Tman]

I never said that inflation wasn't causing problems. The point was that wages clearly aren't "plummeting" in any shape or form.
Graphs without in-depth explanations are also worse than useless, as anyone who attempts to convey (or in this "prove") information in this form ought to know.
So maybe you should read back through the posts before coming out with stuff like "you'll do anything to convince yourself that black is white if you disagree with it" which is more ad hominem than valid and worthwhile debate, even allowing for the dubious graphs.

[baldrick]

realwages-new-594ba2e4d6fd7 (1).png

I would have thought the ONS graph was quite self explanatory for anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
But this is the ONS source:
ONS: Analysis of real earnings: August 2017
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... ngs/latest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[baldrick]

And a couple more graphs from the Office for National Statistics:

screen shot 2017-01-10 at 103151.png

Brexit 1 year on Blog - Chart 2.png

[stranglerscolin]

plummeted,,

[jetblack]

realwages-new-594ba2e4d6fd7 (1).png

I would have thought the ONS graph was quite self explanatory for anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
But this is the ONS source:
ONS: Analysis of real earnings: August 2017
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... s/articles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; /supplementaryanalysisofaverageweeklyearnings/latest

Nominal wages are neither here nor there - irrelevant really. Its real wages that are relevant. And going by that graph Baldrick it looks like there has been a rate of decline unmatched since the 2008 crash. Real wages are now in negative growth - that is, we are getting poorer over time, we are effectively (in real terms) being paid less relative to our costs (the growth of which is represented by inflation). For eg. - they give us a pay increase of 1% - but inflation is 2%. Therefore we are worse off that year by 1% - which for us is what, say a fiver pay cut in real terms ?

(As an aside, whats causing the inflation ? Its not rising wages thats for sure - its QE. Too much money chasing too few goods. Thats right folks - they are pumping more money into the economy and, as mad as it sounds, its actually making us (you and I that is) poorer. I'll not go into the impact of money printing on pensions. In the immortal words of John Lydon - ''Ever get the feeling you've been conned ?' )

So yes, I'd say 'plummeted' is a fair description.

Of course, if people are intent on not seeing the wood for the trees...