Pensions

Post by **moanmoanmoan** » 12 Oct 2007, 14:49

dvbuk,

It was you that origionally bought up the topic of education and appear to have a chip on your shoulder - not me.

As far as work is concerned much of it comes from smaller firms who do not have unions.

I am not anti union - just anti some of the "up the workers" BS that is spoken on this board.

RM management are a bunch of idiots I agree - however there are idiots on both side of the fence.

You have some fair grievances with RM management. Some of your work practices are however out of date and need updating and when considering the current poor financial state of RM(yes I know that is the fault of management) wage claims need to be sensible.

mitzi · Post by **mitzi** » 12 Oct 2007, 15:01

who are you? why are you on this site?

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 12 Oct 2007, 15:12

mitzi wrote:who are you? why are you on this site?

He's a troll, and all being well his business will go bust. Surely the Tory Party must have a site for these spivs to go on.

Post by **moanmoanmoan** » 12 Oct 2007, 15:15

Hopefully not - unless of course I employ people like you - then it would be a dead cert

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 12 Oct 2007, 15:29

moanmoanmoan wrote:Hopefully not - unless of course I employ people like you - then it would be a dead cert

Of course it would. I'm a big fan of the wooden shoe.

Post by **moanmoanmoan** » 12 Oct 2007, 15:35

A first - we agree on something and the reply was civil!!

You creditials for the wooden shoe I am sure are well established.

Lucky RM

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 12 Oct 2007, 15:52

moanmoanmoan wrote:A first - we agree on something and the reply was civil!!

You creditials for the wooden shoe I am sure are well established.

Lucky RM

Yes, it's a very old tried and tested IWW method of getting a long tea break. It always works best when done in a small to medium sized firm which is 'managed' by someone who considers himself a 'self-made man'.

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 12 Oct 2007, 16:00

moanmoanmoan wrote:dvbuk,

Some of your work practices are however out of date and need updating and when considering the current poor financial state of RM(yes I know that is the fault of management) wage claims need to be sensible.

2 Points

Point 1 - the 92 Spanish practices carried out in Royal Mail - the one he mentioned about finishing in 2 hours early Royal Mail brought that in when they got rid of the 2nd delivery as an incentive to get everyone round their duty as quickly as possible. They even gave it a name "Job and Finish". The union fought it but it was brought in anyway. Very disingenuous for Royal Mail to now use it against us. The other 91 practices he has now said, quietly, that they are not endemic and don't happen everywhere. The ones that do are those that Management bribe us with to do extra work.

Point 2 - Surely their wage offers have to be sensible as well. The offer that they are touting means an increase on my wages of Â£9 per week, but the hidden strings and removal of allowances mean a loss in take home pay of between Â£20 and Â£40 a week depending on the size of the round. Hardly a fair offer. Also the pay rise to get is to the national average is an aspiration of the union, not a demand and if they brought it in over 5 years it would only mean an average raise of 5% per year. Hardly sounds damaging as CWU Demand 27% pay rise spin that Royal Mail have put on it.

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 12 Oct 2007, 16:11

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
moanmoanmoan wrote:dvbuk,

Some of your work practices are however out of date and need updating and when considering the current poor financial state of RM(yes I know that is the fault of management) wage claims need to be sensible.
2 Points

Point 1 - the 92 Spanish practices carried out in Royal Mail - the one he mentioned about finishing in 2 hours early Royal Mail brought that in when they got rid of the 2nd delivery as an incentive to get everyone round their duty as quickly as possible. They even gave it a name "Job and Finish". The union fought it but it was brought in anyway. Very disingenuous for Royal Mail to now use it against us. The other 91 practices he has now said, quietly, that they are not endemic and don't happen everywhere. The ones that do are those that Management bribe us with to do extra work.

Point 2 - Surely their wage offers have to be sensible as well. The offer that they are touting means an increase on my wages of Â£9 per week, but the hidden strings and removal of allowances mean a loss in take home pay of between Â£20 and Â£40 a week depending on the size of the round. Hardly a fair offer. Also the pay rise to get is to the national average is an aspiration of the union, not a demand and if they brought it in over 5 years it would only mean an average raise of 5% per year. Hardly sounds damaging as CWU Demand 27% pay rise spin that Royal Mail have put on it.

Well said Teebs. Another bloody expert put in his place!

Post by **moanmoanmoan** » 12 Oct 2007, 16:22

I agree - if the true offer results in a lower wage then this is not a fair one.

I can understand the unions aspiration to increase wages up to the national average level (over a period of time) but is this a realistic aspiration given the current climate?

Why did the union object to "job and finish" when it was proposed? Surley if you objected first time around then this is a victory for you guys?

If the other 91 practices are not endemic then what is the problem with changing them?

Is it not better to concentrate on the real key issues - the silly flexibility suggestions, changing pension conditions and a fair pay offer(something around RPI after changes in allowances).

Post by **dvbuk55** » 12 Oct 2007, 16:28

moanmoanmoan wrote:dvbuk,

It was you that origionally bought up the topic of education and appear to have a chip on your shoulder - not me.

As far as work is concerned much of it comes from smaller firms who do not have unions.

I am not anti union - just anti some of the "up the workers" BS that is spoken on this board.

RM management are a bunch of idiots I agree - however there are idiots on both side of the fence.

You have some fair grievances with RM management. Some of your work practices are however out of date and need updating and when considering the current poor financial state of RM(yes I know that is the fault of management) wage claims need to be sensible.

Education, Education and Education the watchword of new labour. As for a chip on my shoulder

. You see moanmoan I'm not at all impressed by the paper chase. If I was to tell you that I had a degree in English and Modern Languages would you be impressed? Of course not!

What would you know of our work practices? Adams ludicrous 92 Spanish practices was Saatchi speak, not real. Describe, in not more than 500 words, the current financial state of Royal Mail - detailing the lack of published figures for 2006/7, the result of deregulation and the current management agreements with competitors.

Pension? Well I already draw mine and my working practices are restricted to the five hours I work over 5 days. True I haven't always been a postman, but I have always been a socialist and I believe in fair play.

Post by **moanmoanmoan** » 12 Oct 2007, 16:53

I aslo agree in fair play - on both sides.

Historically however socialism and its more extreme forms have been if anything less successful than capitalism in producing an equitable society.

Interim finacial report for RM holdings is freely available on the net.

If published 92 Spanish practices are incorrect then I would get you union leaders to earn their money and tell the press.

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 12 Oct 2007, 17:15

moanmoanmoan wrote:Historically however socialism and its more extreme forms have been if anything less successful than capitalism in producing an equitable society.

Any examples?

L Tommo · Post by **L Tommo** » 12 Oct 2007, 17:49

moanmoanmoan wrote:I aslo agree in fair play - on both sides.

Historically however socialism and its more extreme forms have been if anything less successful than capitalism in producing an equitable society.

Interim finacial report for RM holdings is freely available on the net.

If published 92 Spanish practices are incorrect then I would get you union leaders to earn their money and tell the press.

TELL THE PRESS???? Ahhhhh the one with Murdoch and Leightons mates and croanies.. Them good old truth-mongers Of Wapping and Fleet St...

Mmmmmm Moan Moan... I think the union has been on TV and in The Papers...

Apart from Channel 4 and The Mirror The rest fall into place with the propaganda and spin from The fatcat parasites....

So you say Wage rises need to be sensible...? Ok is any wage UNDER the national average Not sensible and the fact that most posties would return to work IF the strings and slander of Spanish practises where not forced on us and the 92 practises to the media as propaganda!!!

The lack of backing from Goverment and postcon Is the reason RM want to hold the workers to ransom.. Pensions that have had a Holiday On payments.. The goverment never moaned when we where bringing in record profits not so long ago... Before BIG AL N lil adam and CONSIGNIA.... So dont you think the goverement had enough from the top off of profits...??? Now WE HAVE TO BE SELF PROFICIENT... BUSINESS LIKE... PROFIT MAKEING.... Ohhhhh yeh then ask the goverment for a 2.1B hand out.. That just makes RM beholden to them...

The treasury will want that back wont they????

Its all a con to backdoor privatisation of this once great service... Run it down.... make it not a profitable business.. PRIVATISE IT.. KEEP THE SHARES IN HOUSE and mug off the workers and punters alike into thinking ITS STILL A SERVICE FOR ALL....

PHANTOM SHARES!!! HAHAHAHAHAH!!!

The list goes on with the bullshite that RM use....

The current climate is to give Top Civil Servants of RM and Big AL n Adam TOP bonuses.... MMMMM so in this current climate i feel WE THE WORKERS SHOULD be given a wage increase in line with % of there bonuses..... FAIR ENOUGH????

I work for all my bonuses... Themm bastards leach off of us to get theres...

OUT

NEVER LET THE BASTADS GRIND US DOWN!!! :cfo :lfo

Post by **dvbuk55** » 12 Oct 2007, 17:57

moanmoanmoan wrote:I aslo agree in fair play - on both sides.

Historically however socialism and its more extreme forms have been if anything less successful than capitalism in producing an equitable society.

Interim finacial report for RM holdings is freely available on the net.

If published 92 Spanish practices are incorrect then I would get you union leaders to earn their money and tell the press.

You see moanmoan, like a politician, you answer in part only, just like the interim financial report answers in part only. If you could point me in the direction of the published 92 Spanish working practices I would love to read them. Even Crozier has rescinded the statement.

So to summarise you have no concrete evidence of Spanish working practices and therefore no knowledge whatsoever of any working practices good or bad employed by RM staff. The financial report you refer to clearly states they are neither full, final nor accredited so in effect neither tangible nor credible.

I would hardly call capitalism an equitable society. Lets take Adam Crozier's bonus and other members of the boards bonus and put them squarely against the 92p bonus I and my colleagues received. Yep I guess YOU would call that equitable.