Get rid of senior staff

[TrueBlueTerrier]

would love to know the true percentage of what staff can actually hit the royal mail indoor work sorting standards

I can and have passed the 1 minute test.

The IWT is not an individual test.

and why not do a FOI request.

[UnhappyGremlin]

Lets debate this..... when all senior posties had it easy during the first and second delivery... we were all laughing, now we all do a proper days graft, and admit it, the guys and gals that struggle most are the most senior staff. Dont get me wrong, most staff are cracking people, but alot are a waste of royal mails resourses.
First off, spelling. (resourCes). Senior staff don't struggle as a whole, they don't allow themselves to be bullied into working themselves into an early grave. And how can you say we all do a proper days graft whilst implying, in the same sentence, that senior staff are lazy/incapable of doing just that?
I just have the opinion that office based roles and out door walks should be based on performance. Senior staff and the majority of them are not as productive as many of the younger staff. We all get paid the same. No we don't. New starters are on less money, albeit temporarily.
So we should all get treated(grammar!) the same. So seniority should be scrapped and us all put on a level playing field. I just dont understand how, i'll make a point... and here it is.... how a senior staff can sort X amount of letters per min whilst a younger member of staff can sort much more hearsay is not eveidence.... yet senior staff get the better FT contracts due to seniority. I assume by this you mean better duties, with allowances etc.. This should be performance basedCare to explain how?... Now if you all had a company, would you want to hire an older guy at same pay as a younger guy though younger guy does same job but much more efficient? Yes, as then I couldn't be taken to court for age discrimination.

I know alot of members on here are of the older generation, and dont get me wrong i come across as im trying to wind you all up, but actually im not, im just strong in my beliefs that seniority is wrong, and i hope it gets scrapped. I do believe that when we get 20 years down the line, the newer staff of today and say last 5 years will take over and have this company running better... no hand backs, faster sorting and prep etc. No they won't. Most will have been let go by then to be replaced by younger, cheaper employees (or not at all), or will have run themselves ragged and will have been given IHR and gotten rid of.

If you want a true debate with me on this issue as above poster suggested then ill debate. No wind ups, but what i have said here are my true beliefs

DEBATE

Could have made so many more spelling/grammar corrections.
I have asked you to clarify your views etc. on this or another thread, and you don't.
TrueBlueTerrier is, I believe, approx. 15 years older than me, but I am SENIOR to him. Does he hold that against me? Does he view that as unfair? That a younger man can get a job he may want, just down to seniority. I'll let him post and tell you.
The main reason most prefer seniority isn't even to ensure we get first pick, or the best job or whatever. It's because it is a fair system, that all go through and subsequently benefit from, plus the lino's can't just give their mates the best jobs, or use duties to punish/discriminate staff. I, any many others, don't even pick based on content, but on hours of attendance, because the duty I have suits me and my life, and 90% of my office wouldn't want it, don't want it, and have told me so.
Speed is no way to measure ability. If he prep rate is X, the delivery rate is Y, and all candidates that apply achieve both targets, how do you fairly award the duty to one and not the rest? And without the risk of being accused of any form of discrimination?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

TrueBlueTerrier is, I believe, approx. 15 years older than me, but I am SENIOR to him. Does he hold that against me? Does he view that as unfair? That a younger man can get a job he may want, just down to seniority. I'll let him post and tell you.

No its not unfair, and No I don't hold it against anyone - there are plenty of younger posties here who have more seniority than me, in fact reading between the lines Crammy would be senior to me

Its not perfect and there are flaws, especially when its not explained or used correctly, however it is the fairest system I know that isn't open to abuse and cronyism.

Everyone who wants seniority as a means for selection has never been able to answer 2 questions.

1. As the basic role for all delivery duties is basically the same (except driving) how would you identify who has the best skills for a particular duty.

2. If you do have a selection process how is it more efficient and less expensive than the current system. RM can use seniority in certain circumstances if there is a Business reason to do so. Selection by seniority when the basic skill set and expected productivity rates are the same for each position would seem to fit that and especially when everyone goes through a probation period and can be subject to only 1 contractual and measurable test.

[crammypostie1]

to an extent seniority is discriminating, choosing 1 person over an other on time served is not a fair system

[TrueBlueTerrier]

to an extent seniority is discriminating, choosing 1 person over an other on time served is not a fair system

I agree its not a totally fair system - but still you haven't answered the questions how and what you would replace it with that is both fair and seen to be fair, for duties that are essentially the same, and all the applicants have the same skill set required for the task.

Surely if you think a fairer system can be used then describing it on here and explaining why its fairer would allow opponents to point out any flaws.

Management selection is a possibility, I grant you, but how do you get the round the problem described above without favouritism or cronyism not creeping in.

[Tman]

Seniority is a crap way of doing things; a hang-over from the old Civil Service days of the so-called "Buggin's Turn" where progression was through length of service only, however, in the case of a workforce where everyone's notionally equal in ability it's probably the least bad system to use.
A financially constrained RM is unlikely to ever instigate an individual performance based system now, and clearly the CWU aren't pushing for it either, so it seems like you're stuck with it (at least, until privatisation and "free market principles" are introduced anyway)

[crammypostie1]

I believe that efficient workers should get first choice... if say X senior posty can prep in say 700 items into his frame (best duty in office thats why say he picked it) and a guy below him can sort in say 1500 items in same time..... who is more worthy of that duty when 1 is doing the job better? Why is it that senior posties can go over the own time on good duties whilst less senior posties finish well on time doing jobs propery. I know there are alot of heal draggers on delivery and alot know how to play the sysytem, and to be honest you all know who you/they are. We all have them in our offices. Its just i see some guys who dont run, and use royal mail bikes finish an hour before there time, yet senior posties take there cars... which is quicker to and from office and go 2 hours over the top on a similar days work. Why a 3 hour difference? As i said above... playing the game and milking it.

I believe that we should all be tagged... with gps etc to show our whereabouts, and how long we were stationary etc, this stops chatting for too long to any joe bloggs and shows average walk speed and if staff are up to standard. I for one would like to think i could do it, being in my late 30s. But to do this you would get every1 compliaining.

This is just a job at the end of the day, if it gets privitisied then so be it, there are many folk that have jobs in supermarkets, cleaners, petrol stations, if you are not happy with the way royalmail is going, then theres always directgov.co.uk for looking for a new job.

[crammypostie1]

On a note on getting rid of seniority... and managers pick there favs and best workers.... if this was YOUR company and i know it isnt.... who would you pick to work the best duties... and keep in the company... aguy X who is more efficient and fitter and younger or guy Y that is senior and does nt do the work guy X does....

Answers on back of a postcard and send up to the north west of cumbria for me to read thanks

[Wessex]

On a note on getting rid of seniority... and managers pick there favs and best workers.... if this was YOUR company and i know it isnt.... who would you pick to work the best duties... and keep in the company... aguy X who is more efficient and fitter and younger or guy Y that is senior and does nt do the work guy X does....

Answers on back of a postcard and send up to the north west of cumbria for me to read thanks

If it was my company I would pick the cheapest , perhaps someone who does not complain too much and won't cause industrial unrest so probably a foreigner who will work for minimum wage and hopefully will perform unpaid o/t and not take the breaks they are entitled to. I expect you fit the bill as well for most of that Crammy so I will make you supervisor on an extra 10p an hour.

[crammypostie1]

On a note on getting rid of seniority... and managers pick there favs and best workers.... if this was YOUR company and i know it isnt.... who would you pick to work the best duties... and keep in the company... aguy X who is more efficient and fitter and younger or guy Y that is senior and does nt do the work guy X does....

Answers on back of a postcard and send up to the north west of cumbria for me to read thanks

If it was my company I would pick the cheapest , perhaps someone who does not complain too much and won't cause industrial unrest so probably a foreigner who will work for minimum wage and hopefully will perform unpaid o/t and not take the breaks they are entitled to. I expect you fit the bill as well for most of that Crammy so I will make you supervisor on an extra 10p an hour.

This will happen when privitisation comes into effect

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I believe that efficient workers should get first choice... if say X senior posty can prep in say 700 items into his frame (best duty in office thats why say he picked it) and a guy below him can sort in say 1500 items in same time.....

Thats not efficiency thats speed. Just because someone sorts fast doesn't mean they are accurate. The faster sorter in our office is also the one who missorts most go figure.

who is more worthy of that duty when 1 is doing the job better?

Again he is doing it faster not better you would have to include accuracy as well. Also wouldn't you have to include how many complaints/praise from customers, Mis-deliveries and missorts, getting signatures when needed, doorstepping incidents, delivery to a neighbour scheme problem with most of those is that they are subjective and difficult to quantify. What if they brought a literacy test into the mix.

Why is it that senior posties can go over the own time on good duties whilst less senior posties finish well on time doing jobs propery.

Because people work at different paces and speeds and its discriminatory to make any job selection primarily based on age - it has to be based on an average healthy worker up to retirement age.

I know there are alot of heal draggers on delivery and alot know how to play the sysytem,

Heal dragger's - are they first aiders with really big bags,

and to be honest you all know who you/they are. We all have them in our offices. Its just i see some guys who dont run, and use royal mail bikes finish an hour before there time, yet senior posties take there cars... which is quicker to and from office and go 2 hours over the top on a similar days work. Why a 3 hour difference? As i said above... playing the game and milking it.

See above

I believe that we should all be tagged... with gps etc to show our whereabouts, and how long we were stationary etc, this stops chatting for too long to any joe bloggs and shows average walk speed and if staff are up to standard. I for one would like to think i could do it, being in my late 30s. But to do this you would get every1 compliaining.

Why would anyone complain. Also this is the reason sometimes I question if you are going to debate, or if you are a real postie.

All P&L Duties have a PDA which is trackable, and IIRC all walking posties will have them by the end of the year.

This is just a job at the end of the day, if it gets privitisied then so be it, there are many folk that have jobs in supermarkets, cleaners, petrol stations, if you are not happy with the way royalmail is going, then theres always directgov.co.uk for looking for a new job.

Right back at you if you are not happy with the way Royal Mail use seniority, then there's always directgov.co.uk for looking for a new job. See how daft that argument is no matter which side of an argument you put it.

[janitor]

Went back to office one day after a weeks holiday and the DOM was standing propping up his office door, he said so and so did your round last week ,week and was finished an hour earlier, so said to DOM if you want me to put half the letters through the wrong door I could finish an hour earlier. End of discussion, topic never came up again. Few weeks later I was on long weekend came back my duty had been covered on over time, the above mentioned bod threw the round in another delivered it, delivery chap said he'd never seen so many miss sorts in all his years with RM. quicker isn't always better, and it's a job not a race. I can't work out why he only finished and hour early as he came in and did and hour and a half for free.

[Wessex]

A lot of this debate really does come down to a misconception held by many Royal Mail staff that fastest , in particular fastest finishing , somehow equals better.(Although rarely are they quick on ips)
In my penultimate office I was having a lot of unwanted hassle from some of my neighbouring posties so in order to dent their egos, I merely picked up both my sorting and prepping speeds.I was first out of the office every day, they really could not understand it .A sympathetic colleague told me how angry they wereeach morning after I had left .In those times it was still job and finish so I was always finished first.Was I really the better postman ? because I finished first ?

[dvbuk55]

A lot of this debate really does come down to a misconception held by many Royal Mail staff that fastest , in particular fastest finishing , somehow equals better.(Although rarely are they quick on ips)
In my penultimate office I was having a lot of unwanted hassle from some of my neighbouring posties so in order to dent their egos, I merely picked up both my sorting and prepping speeds.I was first out of the office every day, they really could not understand it .A sympathetic colleague told me how angry they wereeach morning after I had left .In those times it was still job and finish so I was always finished first.Was I really the better postman ? because I finished first ?

The odd thing is I get the same reaction from my wife as I always finish before she does

[fishtank]

Give the fastest more work to do.
How hard is this?
If you really wanted to you could pay an incentive but you have to be able to protect quality and safety at the same time.

That's how any business deals with over performers,you don't give them the cushy jobs,what's the point in having "super postie crammy" sitting on a cushy job getting lazy?

You give them more work and utilise their particular skill set until they burn out then you replace them with a younger,fitter "super postie crammy".