Failed delivery ISF - item being returned. Who is liable?

[MJC808]

I posted a small packet to Germany 5 weeks ago and it appears that the item is now being returned to me. The seller has no knowledge of delivery attempts and he maintains that no card was left at his home and the German Postal service could not help when I asked him to contact them.

As soon as the item arrives back, it looks like I will have to refund him in full which means I will lose the £15 that I paid for ISF postage. Can I claim this back from the Royal mail as their German partners have failed to deliver and I don't think I should be liable as I have done everything within my power to make sure that the customer received his item on time?

I've already submitted a claim form as I assumed the item was lost but the detailed tracking is now showing the item is at the national returns centre...

24/09/12 12:12 IN ADDRESSEE PO BOX NATIONAL RETURN CENTRE - any idea how long i will have to wait for the item to get back to me?

Thanks in advance...

[Stormproof]

I very much doubt you can claim, the item was sent through the system and reached the destination. You will have to wait until the item is returned to see why it was returned.....ie incomplete address, not collected if a card was left(i know you said there was no card, but.....). If the item is in the National Returns Centre did you not put your name and address on the back of the parcel?

[avenger]

I posted a small packet to Germany 5 weeks ago and it appears that the item is now being returned to me. The seller has no knowledge of delivery attempts and he maintains that no card was left at his home and the German Postal service could not help when I asked him to contact them.

As soon as the item arrives back, it looks like I will have to refund him in full which means I will lose the £15 that I paid for ISF postage. Can I claim this back from the Royal mail as their German partners have failed to deliver and I don't think I should be liable as I have done everything within my power to make sure that the customer received his item on time?

I've already submitted a claim form as I assumed the item was lost but the detailed tracking is now showing the item is at the national returns centre...

24/09/12 12:12 IN ADDRESSEE PO BOX NATIONAL RETURN CENTRE - any idea how long i will have to wait for the item to get back to me?

Thanks in advance...

so no return address?
you need to wait until its returned to see exactly why its returned.
Did you try tracking it on the German site? on RMs site the tracking should show reason for return on UK stuff,so i wonder if the German tracking is the same

[MJC808]

Here is the full tracking info. I didn't know when I sent it that Royal mail site had 'track details' option as well as standard 'track trace' search. I contacted them weeks ago to see if they could contact their German partners to find out what was going on and they said making a claim was my only option. If they'd told me GLS had the parcel, I could have told the guy to get in touch with them to arrange re-delivery or collection. I hadn't heard of GLS until today.

I had my return address attached securely to the parcel so I'm not sure what's happening there. Hopefully, when they get my claim the first thing they will do is check the tracking and realise where it is so it can come back to me. The guy says he'd still have the item if I attempted to send again so I don't have to give a full refund but I'll still have to pay the postage again. The parcel will be going to his work address this time and he now knows that it can be tracked on the GLS site so he can still find it if they neglect to leave a card again...


Date Time Status Track point
24/09/12 12:12 IN ADDRESSEE PO BOX NATIONAL RETURN CENTRE
19/09/12 14:56 DESPATCHABLE TONATIONAL RETURN CENTRE HEATHROW WORLDWIDE DC
11/09/12 01:47 RECEIVED AT OEGLS GERMANY GLS GERMANY
11/09/12 01:45 RECEIVED AT OEGLS GERMANY GLS GERMANY
10/09/12 17:55 UNDELIVEREDUNCLAIMED GERMANY
10/09/12 17:02 UNDELIVEREDFORCE MAJEURE-NOT DELIVERED GERMANY
10/09/12 15:49 UNDELIVEREDFORCE MAJEURE-NOT DELIVERED GERMANY
27/08/12 14:27 DELIVERED GERMANY
27/08/12 13:00 UNDELIVEREDNOT AT ADDRESS, OFFICE CLOSED GERMANY
24/08/12 19:43 RECEIVED AT OEGLS GERMANY GLS GERMANY
23/08/12 AM DESPATCHED TOGLS GERMANY GERMANY
22/08/12 23:56 RECEIVED ATHEATHROW WORLDWIDE DC HEATHROW WORLDWIDE DC
21/08/12 18:52 DESPATCHABLE TOHWDC SIGNED FOR ROAD 2 TYNESIDE MAIL CENTRE
21/08/12 18:35 COLLECTED TYNESIDE MAIL CENTRE
21/08/12 14:42 ACCEPTED AT POL 8 till 10 NE8 1SQ

[adb2aber]

UNDELIVERED FORCE MAJEURE

Yikes!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

UNDELIVERED FORCE MAJEURE

Yikes!

indeed

FORCE MAJEURE is a common clause in contracts that essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties, such as a war, strike, riot, crime, or an event described by the legal term act of God (such as hurricane, flooding, earthquake, volcanic eruption, etc.), prevents one or both parties from fulfilling their obligations under the contract. In practice, most force majeure clauses do not excuse a party's non-performance entirely, but only suspends it for the duration of the force majeure.

[avenger]

Hopefully, when they get my claim the first thing they will do is check the tracking and realise where it is so it can come back to me.

umm horse before the cart?
call RM and get the item returned to you before lodging any claim
They will(IMO) simply refuse your claim given the item is shown as RTS and they have the item

[MJC808]

Hopefully, when they get my claim the first thing they will do is check the tracking and realise where it is so it can come back to me.

umm horse before the cart?

call RM and get the item returned to you before lodging any claim
They will(IMO) simply refuse your claim given the item is shown as RTS and they have the item

Ummm, I was told to lodge the claim by a royal mail adviser when I asked them to help me find out where the buyers parcel was. All they had to do was tell me who the carrier was and the guy could have collected his parcel or arranged a re-delivery before it was returned.


Dear Mr *****

Thank you for contacting Royal Mail.

I am sorry to learn that the recipients are denying receipt of your
International Signed For item with reference number RJ********GB.
Unfortunately, we are unable to process enquiries or claims by email for mail
sent abroad, this is due to the specialised investigation required.

With the above in mind, please submit a P58 Lost or Damaged International Mail
Claim Form, which are available from any Post Office® Counter. Alternatively,
these forms can be downloaded from our website at the following address:
http://www.royalmail.com/p58" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[MJC808]

At least me sending the claim form makes it easier for them to identify the parcel as mine if it has lost it's return address. The claim form contains the tracking number and the buyers details which has to help as there is no other way for them to identify the parcel as belonging to me.

I wasn't expecting a payout for a returned item - the item was being treated as lost until I was able to view more detailed tracking info.

OH, BTW I sent the claim form off last week before the item landed in Belfast so how was I supposed to call them and ask them to return it?

[MJC808]

. Hopefully, when they get my claim the first thing they will do is check the tracking and realise where it is so it can come back to me.

umm horse before the cart?
call RM and get the item returned to you before lodging any claim
They will(IMO) simply refuse your claim given the item is shown as RTS and they have the item

At least me sending the claim form makes it easier for them to identify the parcel as mine if it has lost it's return address. The claim form contains the tracking number and the buyers details which has to help as there is no other way for them to identify the parcel as belonging to me.

I wasn't expecting a payout for a returned item - the item was being treated as lost until I was able to view more detailed tracking info.

OH, BTW I sent the claim form off last week before the item landed in Belfast so how was I supposed to call them and ask them to return it?

Furthermore, the item's status was described as 'delivered' for two weeks before being updated so as far as the buyer and I were concerned, the item was lost because he hadn't received anything.

10/09/12 15:49 UNDELIVEREDFORCE MAJEURE-NOT DELIVERED GERMANY
27/08/12 14:27 DELIVERED GERMANY

[MJC808]

UNDELIVERED FORCE MAJEURE

Yikes!

indeed

FORCE MAJEURE is a common clause in contracts that essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties, such as a war, strike, riot, crime, or an event described by the legal term act of God (such as hurricane, flooding, earthquake, volcanic eruption, etc.), prevents one or both parties from fulfilling their obligations under the contract. In practice, most force majeure clauses do not excuse a party's non-performance entirely, but only suspends it for the duration of the force majeure.

It was pretty quiet in Berlin that week by all accounts so I'd be interested to know which catastrophic events led to the parcel not being delivered and the intended recipient not being informed that a delivery had been attempted?

[MJC808]

Re: Royal Mail employees who help in this forum.
by TrueBlueTerrier » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:20 pm

Update from Teebs.

1. Please also make your response polite.
2. Do not use expletives.
3. Do not abuse the customers even if they are in your opinion abusing postal workers.

All posts that fall foul of these rules will be amended or deleted. In extreme cases members will be warned officially and banned where appropriate. We are trying to make this a resource for Customers as well as Workers. Ideally customers will be given advice and guidance without spin, and from the shop floor instead of by customer advisor's who probably are not allowed off script and are not allowed to use their common sense.

[TeeferTiger]

Looking at this part:
27/08/12 13:00 UNDELIVEREDNOT AT ADDRESS, OFFICE CLOSED GERMANY

Looks like delivery was attemped, then an hour and a half later it was "delivered", then 2 weeks later it was undelivered.

Only thing that would make sense to me is a bit of a c*ck up. If it was scanned back into the office incorrectly when it was returned as undelivered, then that explains the delivered status. I imagine it was probably put on a shelf awaiting collection and then they for some reason selected force majeure as the reason for it not being delivered as opposed to what we would call "not called for" i.e. the customer didn't turn up with their card to collect it.

Seems like one error after another because it makes absolutely no sense otherwise. It wasn't being delivered to a PO Box address or anything was it?

[MJC808]

Looking at this part:
27/08/12 13:00 UNDELIVEREDNOT AT ADDRESS, OFFICE CLOSED GERMANY

Looks like delivery was attemped, then an hour and a half later it was "delivered", then 2 weeks later it was undelivered.

Only thing that would make sense to me is a bit of a c*ck up. If it was scanned back into the office incorrectly when it was returned as undelivered, then that explains the delivered status. I imagine it was probably put on a shelf awaiting collection and then they for some reason selected force majeure as the reason for it not being delivered as opposed to what we would call "not called for" i.e. the customer didn't turn up with their card to collect it.

Seems like one error after another because it makes absolutely no sense otherwise. It wasn't being delivered to a PO Box address or anything was it?

Thanks for a nice reply to my original post. I don't think I have criticised Royal Mail too badly in my previous posts as the fault lies with the German carrier. I only wish that the customer service operator who contacted me could have let me know who had it so I could tell the guy to contact them. I thought it would have been handled by Deutsche Post or DHL so I told him to contact them when the parcel went AWOL for two weeks.

The item was being delivered to the guys home address but he was probably at work when a delivery was attempted. He maintains that a card wasn't left but it is annoying to think it was being held no more than a few blocks away at a paket shop.

I just hope that I receive the item back ASAP as his finger is probably hovering above the 'open paypal dispute' button as we speak.

If he demanded a refund, I'd have to cough up the lot including the £15 postage. If I re-send the item to him I am no worse off so I'm probably going to send it to his work address...

[Sidley]

Does sending it to his workplace, an address probably NOT listed in the customer's PayPal account, not leave you wide open to all sorts of trouble?