Are we low paid?

[Tman]

it's just that since the Industrial Revolution the whole population have got ideas of rising above their station ( hence the influx of Irish since the 18th/19th Century, W. Indians since "Windrush", and E. Indians Africans since independence - all welcomed by Govt to do the work the indiginous population fell is below them )....wouldn't it be better to increase income for unskilled / semi skilled jobs so the indigenous population might be attracted to do them, not least if that income is clearly above the income gained by legitamate claiming of benefits?

Yes

So, if I enjoy working with those in my immediate area ( including managers ), but do not enjoy the influence and decisions of others far beyond my area, I should either put up or shut up - even though some of the most successful ( and in some cases longest surviving ) employers put employee happiness high on the agenda and even actively seek employee opinion?

But you work for RM, so "yes" again.

That's a rhetorical question, cos unless I get a job with John Lewis, I know my opinions will be unheard.....but for a public service, owned by the Government ( who will want my opinion in a few months time ) why should that be the case?

Because you're bottom of the heap, and no matter what country/job/political system you may have, those at the bottom have the least say?
{Incidentally, you don't believe John Lewis is some sort of worker's paradise, do you? }

[DGP1]

Because you're bottom of the heap, and no matter what country/job/political system you may have, those at the bottom have the least say?

ROTFPMSL............

He does come out with some crackers he takes to worst of the true blue tory view points and just repeats them in the hope that he may someday be elevated to their level (think Cholo in Land of the Dead ).

[Tman]

Deja vu, here we go again........

The good old "let's quote some esoteric literary pieces as a riposte and as proof we know what we're talking about" strategy. Laughable....

Of course, a pragmatist/realist would just post a time and place where those at the bottom did have more of a voice; now that might disprove what I posted, but I'm guessing you find the "literary" bit much easier to do though...

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Of course, a pragmatist/realist would just post a time and place where those at the bottom did have more of a voice; now that might disprove what I posted, but I'm guessing you find the "literary" bit much easier to do though...

Just off the top of my head -

The start of the Russian Revolution - until power corrupted those put in power.
The Velvet revolution.
The French Revolution (depending on view point) at various points and uprisings between the 1790 and the Terror all before Bonaparte came to power.
The Chinese communists till they went the same way as the Russians.
Various Peasant uprisings from Mid to Late Middle Ages.

Regrettably all the these and no doubt other revolutions where "those at the bottom" had more of a voice have 2 disadvantages,

1. They tend to be communist so you will right them off straight away as irrelevant
2. Ultimately they were either suppressed violently by those in power, or those put in power by them became corrupted and began their own suppression, with one exception.

[Tman]

Regrettably all the these and no doubt other revolutions where "those at the bottom" had more of a voice have 2 disadvantages,

1. They tend to be communist so you will right them off straight away as irrelevant

"Tend to be communist"? You'll be saying next communists somehow invented revolutions, but thanks for the assumption anyway..

2. Ultimately they were either suppressed violently by those in power, or those put in power by them became corrupted and began their own suppression, with one exception.

You forgot number 3-
namely even (especially) after such revolutions as you quote, there were still those at the bottom; the disadvantaged, the poor and needy. Nothing to do with communism as such, more to do with the sad fact that the weakest will always suffer most, and more so when times are tough (as in post-revolution).

Unless you believe that the Utopian dream would/could ever exist of course...........

[Tman]

And some people no matter the proof will never be satisfied with what is posted and always find fault no matter how trivial..
It is the internet forum mentality and its ability to remain faceless
Now were is my NLP manual

Sorry, I didn't see any "proof" of anything. I agree about the "internet forum mentality" though; posting a load of waffle of little or no relevance then subsequently claiming "proof", is such a common tactic.

Still waiting for a good example of those at the bottom being at the top though, and if you knew anything of history (that is real historical accounts, not politically-skewed spiel produced for the acolytes) you'd know the USSR is a really bad example to quote.

[smokerjim]

Sorry, I didn't see any "proof" of anything. I agree about the "internet forum mentality" though; posting a load of waffle of little or no relevance then subsequently claiming "proof", is such a common tactic.

How can you define irony? Read the above!

[Tman]

You'll have to point me to where I said I'd proved anything, Smoker feller......

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Regrettably all the these and no doubt other revolutions where "those at the bottom" had more of a voice have 2 disadvantages,

1. They tend to be communist so you will right them off straight away as irrelevant

"Tend to be communist"? You'll be saying next communists somehow invented revolutions, but thanks for the assumption anyway..

No my examples tend to be communist not that the communists invented revolutions. Talk about assuming.

The only thing I assumed was you would right them off as examples as your opinion of communism has certainly been made clear by your previous posts on the subject.

Even the French revolution could be labelled communists as although the political ideology did not exist then some academics believe communism as a movement probably came out of the French Revolution particularly with regards to the views of François Noël Babeuf who propounded a Marxist approach to governance.

[Tman]

There was proof posted within his post.

No, there was opinion, not proof...

That would all depend if you believe/think that the uprising that gave way to the former USSR was all a Zionist plot, a discussion I am not prepared to go further on.

But I don't think it was a Zionist plot, so you can go further...

All history is politically skewed as it is written by the victors.

True, but that's not the same as all the "Glorious Revolution" bolleaux spouted for years by all and sundry, which miraculously disappeared overnight along with the Iron Curtain. Curious co-incidence, that...

[Tman]

No my examples tend to be communist not that the communists invented revolutions. Talk about assuming.
The only thing I assumed was you would right them off as examples as your opinion of communism has certainly been made clear by your previous posts on the subject.

I know you were assuming that, and that was exactly why I said "thanks for the assumption".
The "communists inventing revolution" was a wry (wasted) joke and not meant as a preamble to another history lesson...

[TrueBlueTerrier]