Managers suspended at Edinburgh Mail Centre for hiding mail

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I think you're clinging to a perception that isn't backed by hard facts. Still, if you want to believe that mail volume is up and Royal Mail is making as much money as ever, thats up to you.

No you said the Uk must be the only country in the world experiencing a volume increase. Baldrick thought Eire and Italy had reported as such. I researched the subject and found one had, I then produced evidence they presented to back up this.

Also no one has said RM is making as much money as ever, that's probably the one thing that most of us agree on, that they are not. In fact I reported a story showing the USO making a loss for the first time in its history.

Also since when has perception had to based on "Hard Facts". Some believe in God, some believe in Extra Terrestrials and some believe in Creationism yet none of these beliefs have yet been backed up by hard facts.

Questioning authority and their positions is IMO a sign of a healthy degree of freedom of expression and independence of thought. Although these 2 quotes say it better than I ever could:

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."

— Albert Einstein

"I believe in a lively disrespect for most forms of authority."

— Rita Mae Brown

[F0zziebear]

If I was a postie I would think volumes were static at worst and increasing in all likeihood. Why is this?
your delivery rounds have been progressively increased in size year on year.
Population density in urban areas has increased (more single occupancy ownership etc.) This means the more mail out of the whole pie is landing on a smaller proportion of the doorsteps. About 60% of the Uk population is accessible on 9-10% of the geographical space.

However you like to do the figures the revenue coming into RM is going down. So regardless of whether you have more to deliver or not RM has less money to get it done. You can argue this, claim that if senior management had their pay cut then etc.... However a 1% rise in frontline employee pay (bear in mind you have collective pay bargaining) adds about £100M onto the RM wage bill.

The main problem RM has amongst all the others is that is high a high proportion of fixed costs, which means that regardless of whether No.10 Downing Street gets 1 letter or 100,000 letters you still need to cover it.

When people are put under pressure, as is increasingly happening in RM, then some crack and hide/steal mail and cash as we have seen in this case. Do I blame Adam and Alan. I blame them for not spending more time winning the internal hearts and minds. Having worked with the executives of RM I know how hard they have worked at keeping the competition at bay. They spent ages delaying the implementation of DSA, and then put in place a pricing regime and operational regime to make it as difficult as humanly possible for them to compete. Surely the fact that none of them have provided a full E2E system after 5 years is clear evidence of a good strategy. It might not be perfect or gives you a secure job with great benefits, but it's better than what it might have been.

Going back to the point about volumes. As I said before there are various ways of measurnig national mail volumes, and all of them indicate that volumes are declining in almost all sectors, and certinaly declining overall!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Surely the fact that none of them have provided a full E2E system after 5 years is clear evidence of a good strategy. It might not be perfect or gives you a secure job with great benefits, but it's better than what it might have been.

Going back to the point about volumes. As I said before there are various ways of measuring national mail volumes, and all of them indicate that volumes are declining in almost all sectors, and certainly declining overall!

Actually I think a strategy of stopping or slowing down competitors providing an E2E service is probably what got us into this mess. If we had real competition against another E2E provider we would not be offering DSA prices at a loss, and regulation which is choking the life out of RM, would be eased. We can be either in full competition and be target and profit driven, or we can be a Public service that provides a world class efficient and modern system, and where profit is desirable but not the be all and end all. At the moment we stuck somewhere in between and this is why the bosses pull one way and the Union the other.

Come on GB make your mind up and decide what you want, stop dithering and make a decision, I may disagree with it but at least I and my colleagues will know where we stand.

[andy2007]

We've heard a great deal, from those who deliver the Mail, and those who know about the Accounting. But what about those of us, who ship it around the Country?
I work in Logistics, and have seen some pretty big changes, in our Mail Volumes. For example: The proportion of DSA, is increasing steadily, while our "own" Mail, is declining at a similar rate. Also, the type of Mail we handle, is changing too. There's far more small parcels, compared to a few years ago. These take up more space, so we need more RSCs/Yorkies, to send the same volume of Mail.

Having said that: we don't fill as many Trailers during most of the year, as we did five or six years ago. But at busy times of year (like now, for example), we are filling just as many, as we always have done. At times, more.

For example: I'm sure everyone on Deliveries, is very aware of the number of Lightbulbs they are delivering. And now Autumn Pressure has finally arrived (a bit later than usual), things will get even busier. Then there's Christmas Pressure, following on from that.

How exactly are you supposed to deliver all that, in the time allowed?
They'll have to bring in lots of Agency. Fine for the ones who've done it before. Although they'll still have to learn the round they will be doing. But as the training they are given, is woefully inadequate. It'll most likley cause chaos. That'll make us look bad, and Customers could potentially go to the Competition as a result!

Is that bad Management, or a deliberate attempt to run the Business down?
Who knows?
Personally, I think it's the latter. Considering, that we have all seen this problem coming of quite some time. But we were ignored, as they only cared about saving money in the short term.

[Night Tonic]

Mail volume was at one time a good indication of profitability, when RM was the only real provider, and even though it still delivers all this stuff, a lot of the profit is now being lost through DSA. If as suggested, around 40% of business contracts have gone to others, its a safe bet that if volume even stayed the same, it wouldn't be enough. Twice as much maybe.

[F0zziebear]

Andy makes some good points about logistics. It's not just that volumes are declining, but also that the type of mail is also changing. RM's system is not designed to handle large volumes of small packages. This means more manual handling, which is expensive.

In my time working on top projects and with senior execs I did not come acorss any documents that talked about running the business down, or overheard any conversations to that affect. This does not mean that they are not trying to do this, but found no evidence of a conscious decision to do so.

If fact the main aim was to slim down the business, modernise the operation so that it can compete against a competitor who created an E2E system. So I take issue with the previous point about E2E would have been better than DSA. No it wouldn't. The reason for this is that to get RM ready for competition may take upto ten years, assumign that modernisation actually started five years ago, and with another five years of implementing more machines, cutting down the number of mail centres etc. In that time RM needed to protect as much volume as possible. Once you lose the volume completely you are really stuffed. Better to get it DSa at 13.5p than nothing at all.

Someone mentioned in a previous post that I've probably never been on a walk. This is not true and I worked in operations, took out walks, felt how heavy those bags can be, saw those ridiculous drop points, experienced bullying and harassment first hand etc. what makes a difference is the fact that I worked in all part sof the business either directly or as part of other initiatives and got to know people from across the business. This afforded the rare opportunity to see the company from numerous angles, and at different levels, which I hazard a guess is not what most others have experienced. I must also point out that I do not work in the industry and do not seek to represent anyone or group of people within RM or the wider industry, just to provide insight based on my experiences and knowledge.

[Tman]

The point is that you seem to think RM's claims of falling mail volumes are gospel, and that MC managers
never fiddle the figures.

Seeing as MCMs have no access to the figures, no way to input into the figures, and no way to fiddle the figures, then I think that's quite true.



This proves that they are not infallible,
Of course they're not infallible, far from it, but the dumb connection was that because the Edinburgh MCM was hiding mail, then volumes must be rising, which is a laughable statement. It's almost up there with "of course mail volumes are up, I take out more bags of mail now" for dumbness.

[norbert]

Surely the fact that none of them have provided a full E2E system after 5 years is clear evidence of a good strategy. It might not be perfect or gives you a secure job with great benefits, but it's better than what it might have been.

Going back to the point about volumes. As I said before there are various ways of measuring national mail volumes, and all of them indicate that volumes are declining in almost all sectors, and certainly declining overall!

Actually I think a strategy of stopping or slowing down competitors providing an E2E service is probably what got us into this mess. If we had real competition against another E2E provider we would not be offering DSA prices at a loss, and regulation which is choking the life out of RM, would be eased. We can be either in full competition and be target and profit driven, or we can be a Public service that provides a world class efficient and modern system, and where profit is desirable but not the be all and end all. At the moment we stuck somewhere in between and this is why the bosses pull one way and the Union the other.

Come on GB make your mind up and decide what you want, stop dithering and make a decision, I may disagree with it but at least I and my colleagues will know where we stand.

[pinstripe]

I see this thread is degenerating into the usual "mail volumes are up...no, they're down...no they're up".
This has been debated many times and the only result is that we don't agree. Those actually delivering the mail report no drop in the amount of mail, the number of bags or the time taken to deliver it.
If I accept that there has been a 2.5% fall in the total volume/amount/income/whatever mail, that equates to a maximum of 25 letters for every 1000 I deliver. Given the increase in small packets and the perceived lack of faith in the postal service as a whole, leading to a pronounced increase in the number of items now being sent recorded & special delivery, the time-scale for delivering has increased as well as the number of bags.
My delivery has increased in size by 10% with delivery point growth (in the past 4 years), but the amount of time I have to deliver has not increased, the time I have to prep has not increased and thanks to the union caving in last year, the 1.5% pay rise has not increased my wages either.
The bottom line is we have more work to do for less money in less time. Any fall in volumes are tiny compared to what we still deliver.
Is it any wonder that most do not believe the hype.

[F0zziebear]

Pinstripe you make a good point, and so does tman. This has been debated before. As you say you are being asked to do more for at best same wages as before (accounting for inflation and pay rises) or at worst for less than you earn't before.

Posties are glorified mules. The old view of them being on a par with the local bobbie/fireman etc. has long gone. Is that a good thing, in many respects no, but then we've morphed our society into one that is not prepared to pay collectively for 'social services'

The mail volumes up/down question has nothing to do with this thread. As Tman points out the managers were hiding the mail so that they could claim that they had cleared the mail centre and hit their own targets.

Mail volumes are measured in numerous ways and operational managers have no control, as they have no control over quality figures as these are carried out by an independent research company.

I've said enough on this thread and won't say anymore

[BELIAL]

I wonder who pays the independent research company? I wonder who approves the contract for next years research?

[norbert]

I wonder who pays the independent research company? I wonder who approves the contract for next years research?

cynic !

[BELIAL]

Someone mentioned in a previous post that I've probably never been on a walk. This is not true and I worked in operations, took out walks, felt how heavy those bags can be, saw those ridiculous drop points, experienced bullying and harassment first hand etc. I must also point out that I do not work in the industry and do not seek to represent anyone or group of people within RM or the wider industry, just to provide insight based on my experiences and knowledge.

What I actually did Fozz was ask a question ,which by definition can be neither true nor "not true".
Since you feel qualified to contradict the views of regular delivery posties, I was simply wondering what relevant experience your view was based on. Telling us our walks have changed is a bit like granny sucking eggs to be honest . But hey I'll eat my words if you've been doing a daily walk for the last two years just noticed you don't even work for RM Things move on,thanks for your opinion

[baldrick]

I think you're clinging to a perception that isn't backed by hard facts. Still, if you want to believe that mail volume is up and Royal Mail is making as much money as ever, thats up to you.

No you said the Uk must be the only country in the world experiencing a volume increase. Baldrick thought Eire and Italy had reported as such. I researched the subject and found one had, I then produced evidence they presented to back up this.

Also no one has said RM is making as much money as ever, that's probably the one thing that most of us agree on, that they are not. In fact I reported a story showing the USO making a loss for the first time in its history.

Also since when has perception had to based on "Hard Facts". Some believe in God, some believe in Extra Terrestrials and some believe in Creationism yet none of these beliefs have yet been backed up by hard facts.

Questioning authority and their positions is IMO a sign of a healthy degree of freedom of expression and independence of thought. Although these 2 quotes say it better than I ever could:

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."

— Albert Einstein

"I believe in a lively disrespect for most forms of authority."

— Rita Mae Brown

TBT did post a news item showing that Italy had reported an increase in mail volumes
http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 0&p=110285
and I'm sure that other countries, especially those with expanding economies such as
Brazil, China and India must also have increasing mail volumes.
I think Night Tonic is accepting Hellmail's assertions a bit too unquestioningly - and I
do accept that UK letter mail volume may be down by about 3%, but that is fairly insignificant
given that packet volumes are rising according to RM.

[axeman]

This has got to be far more widespread than the offices already involved as the two posters who reguarly say 'mail is down' . Someones telling porkies and it sure as hell ain't the postmen , women, we have said volumes are up but the false accounting and hiding of mail still continues.