If you are voting NO - PLEASE SHARE - 'VOTE NO' LEAFLET

[timbo1234]

Timbo,
John is correct. If this is a simplistic view thats because it is a simple ballot. "Do you accept the proposed agreement or not?"

We are not being balloted to sort out the future of the company. Period. Your opinion on how best to perform your daily duties is neither requested or required. So what leads you to believe anyone is listening to your thoughts of what will happen with RM in the future.

Whilst we're at it, let's just clear this up shall we. This is not yet an agreement. It is, at this stage, a proposal. Nothing has been agreed. It has been recommended by our representatives but it has not been agreed. So there's that.

If anyone wants me to get involved in ideas of how best to turn around the fortunes of this company going forward....well that's going to involve a massive pay increase and a completely different set of t&c's for me, or you or whoever takes that job. That's t&c's that will be unaffected by this proposal by the way!

Our ballot is for the proposal that's been presented. Unless of course you have been given the go ahead to be the new CEO, CFO, COO of RM or GS of CWU? If not, then you, me and everyone else is voting on the proposal that has been put in front of us. End of.

I know what a yes vote brings. A no vote does what then? You have no idea forward apart from RM and CWU will have to work it out somehow, somewhere, sometime between some people. I don't vote for an outcome and a future I have no control over. End of. Don't want any of the jobs by the way - but at least I get a say in the CWU ones.

It is not in my remit as a postal worker to put any ideas forward to resolve this. If you have voted in any election at anytime, then I'm afraid you have voted for an outcome and future you have no control over. You , like the rest of us are powerless once the result is returned. I'm not saying you did, but if you had voted for the conservatives I'm sure you had no control of the current state of affairs of the party and country. Unless of course, you have the power to control those outcomes, which obviously you don't.

So yeah, crack on and explain all the control you feel you have currently and how you can see into the future to predict how RM will honour the "agreement" and feel free to demonstrate how the current CWU leadership will stop RM steam rolling over anything and everything as they see fit. Crack on and use that crystal ball of yours to tell us in all absolute certainty what that yes vote brings in the future. Don't come at me with the basics either...make a stand and tell me exactly how you see a yes vote playing out 18 months from now. I promise I'll read it through. Just please don't come back at me with the same old "what's your plan B" nonsense.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We all have a vote to use as we choose. How you choose to vote is your choice & I have no issue with that in any way. End of.

So it's OK for you to predict doom , gloom and despondency of a yes vote in your leaflet but not OK for the pragmatists among us to predict the future if a No vote. Seems very one sided which is typical of Trotskyist thinking. It's 2023 not 1923. Incidentally I would not vote Tory if my life depended on it. Neither would I vote for a party that wanted to go backwards to "the good old days".

[scotchy1962]

Timbo,
John is correct. If this is a simplistic view thats because it is a simple ballot. "Do you accept the proposed agreement or not?"

We are not being balloted to sort out the future of the company. Period. Your opinion on how best to perform your daily duties is neither requested or required. So what leads you to believe anyone is listening to your thoughts of what will happen with RM in the future.

Whilst we're at it, let's just clear this up shall we. This is not yet an agreement. It is, at this stage, a proposal. Nothing has been agreed. It has been recommended by our representatives but it has not been agreed. So there's that.

If anyone wants me to get involved in ideas of how best to turn around the fortunes of this company going forward....well that's going to involve a massive pay increase and a completely different set of t&c's for me, or you or whoever takes that job. That's t&c's that will be unaffected by this proposal by the way!

Our ballot is for the proposal that's been presented. Unless of course you have been given the go ahead to be the new CEO, CFO, COO of RM or GS of CWU? If not, then you, me and everyone else is voting on the proposal that has been put in front of us. End of.

I know what a yes vote brings. A no vote does what then? You have no idea forward apart from RM and CWU will have to work it out somehow, somewhere, sometime between some people. I don't vote for an outcome and a future I have no control over. End of. Don't want any of the jobs by the way - but at least I get a say in the CWU ones.

It is not in my remit as a postal worker to put any ideas forward to resolve this. If you have voted in any election at anytime, then I'm afraid you have voted for an outcome and future you have no control over. You , like the rest of us are powerless once the result is returned. I'm not saying you did, but if you had voted for the conservatives I'm sure you had no control of the current state of affairs of the party and country. Unless of course, you have the power to control those outcomes, which obviously you don't.

So yeah, crack on and explain all the control you feel you have currently and how you can see into the future to predict how RM will honour the "agreement" and feel free to demonstrate how the current CWU leadership will stop RM steam rolling over anything and everything as they see fit. Crack on and use that crystal ball of yours to tell us in all absolute certainty what that yes vote brings in the future. Don't come at me with the basics either...make a stand and tell me exactly how you see a yes vote playing out 18 months from now. I promise I'll read it through. Just please don't come back at me with the same old "what's your plan B" nonsense.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We all have a vote to use as we choose. How you choose to vote is your choice & I have no issue with that in any way. End of.

Nice one Slim.
I have been trying to tell people this for a while now.
Vote on what is in front of you not on a hypothetical outcome either way.
It really is that simple.

[stevejm]

The GREEN agenda is a smoke screen to stitch everyone up. Next winter and summer when the lump sums are long gone will you be happy with what's expected of you with more to come in 2 years time?

Whether it happens this year or the next 2 year's. RM will get all their change's through. Some of you guys are acting as though things will stay the same. Delay the inevitable sure but they will push things through especially being in such a dire financial situation. They have all the excuses they want to change the business model. If they were rolling in cash, it would be a difficult sell. The debt pile isn't pretty so they will get the changes through.

It's a s**t job anyway. You lot are acting like your saving some precious jewel. Used to be decent when we could drop our left over mail & packet's at the post office. Slowly gotten worse. Now clock in & clock outs. Bollocks to it. Nothing to save anymore.

Their debt is not bad at all. Not good but nothing that can't be cleared - and part of it is a mirage because they added 500 million of debt by wiping off 500 million of good will which is an asset. Once the dispute is over and some old customers return that 'good will' can be upgraded and 500 million assets added back on balance sheet thereby reducing debt by 500 million.

Creative accounting my friend !

[Slim2none]

Timbo,
John is correct. If this is a simplistic view thats because it is a simple ballot. "Do you accept the proposed agreement or not?"

We are not being balloted to sort out the future of the company. Period. Your opinion on how best to perform your daily duties is neither requested or required. So what leads you to believe anyone is listening to your thoughts of what will happen with RM in the future.

Whilst we're at it, let's just clear this up shall we. This is not yet an agreement. It is, at this stage, a proposal. Nothing has been agreed. It has been recommended by our representatives but it has not been agreed. So there's that.

If anyone wants me to get involved in ideas of how best to turn around the fortunes of this company going forward....well that's going to involve a massive pay increase and a completely different set of t&c's for me, or you or whoever takes that job. That's t&c's that will be unaffected by this proposal by the way!

Our ballot is for the proposal that's been presented. Unless of course you have been given the go ahead to be the new CEO, CFO, COO of RM or GS of CWU? If not, then you, me and everyone else is voting on the proposal that has been put in front of us. End of.

I know what a yes vote brings. A no vote does what then? You have no idea forward apart from RM and CWU will have to work it out somehow, somewhere, sometime between some people. I don't vote for an outcome and a future I have no control over. End of. Don't want any of the jobs by the way - but at least I get a say in the CWU ones.

It is not in my remit as a postal worker to put any ideas forward to resolve this. If you have voted in any election at anytime, then I'm afraid you have voted for an outcome and future you have no control over. You , like the rest of us are powerless once the result is returned. I'm not saying you did, but if you had voted for the conservatives I'm sure you had no control of the current state of affairs of the party and country. Unless of course, you have the power to control those outcomes, which obviously you don't.

So yeah, crack on and explain all the control you feel you have currently and how you can see into the future to predict how RM will honour the "agreement" and feel free to demonstrate how the current CWU leadership will stop RM steam rolling over anything and everything as they see fit. Crack on and use that crystal ball of yours to tell us in all absolute certainty what that yes vote brings in the future. Don't come at me with the basics either...make a stand and tell me exactly how you see a yes vote playing out 18 months from now. I promise I'll read it through. Just please don't come back at me with the same old "what's your plan B" nonsense.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We all have a vote to use as we choose. How you choose to vote is your choice & I have no issue with that in any way. End of.

So it's OK for you to predict doom , gloom and despondency of a yes vote in your leaflet but not OK for the pragmatists among us to predict the future if a No vote. Seems very one sided which is typical of Trotskyist thinking. It's 2023 not 1923. Incidentally I would not vote Tory if my life depended on it. Neither would I vote for a party that wanted to go backwards to "the good old days".

1) it's not my leaflet.
2) you were asked to predict the future of a yes vote.
3) Trotskyist? Seriously? !
4) so have you ever voted or not?

Look, I'm quite happy to have an intelligent 2 way conversation but please read the posts carefully before responding.

[Ppat98]

Their debt is not bad at all. Not good but nothing that can't be cleared - and part of it is a mirage because they added 500 million of debt by wiping off 500 million of good will which is an asset. Once the dispute is over and some old customers return that 'good will' can be upgraded and 500 million assets added back on balance sheet thereby reducing debt by 500 million.

Creative accounting my friend !

The likelihood of that happening isn't high. Financial analyst's that cover rm all have bleak outlook's on Rm's future. Why do you think they wanna seperate RM from gps?
RM business model is dying.

[LouBarlow]

Their debt is not bad at all. Not good but nothing that can't be cleared - and part of it is a mirage because they added 500 million of debt by wiping off 500 million of good will which is an asset. Once the dispute is over and some old customers return that 'good will' can be upgraded and 500 million assets added back on balance sheet thereby reducing debt by 500 million.

Creative accounting my friend !

The likelihood of that happening isn't high. Financial analyst's that cover rm all have bleak outlook's on Rm's future. Why do you think they wanna seperate RM from gps?
RM business model is dying.

You are wasting your time trying to explain this. We have RM, the CWU, the PEC and financial experts, telling us that the company is in a terrible position, but the ‘experts’ on here will always claim otherwise, despite offering no evidence to the contrary.

[guardianangel]

Probably should add that you will be doing all of those if you vote no too.

We dont know this for sure ,why haven't they already done it,we know they need a yes vote for some aspects of the deal,witholding pay for 8 months is illegal they need that change of contract or be in breach

[LouBarlow]

Probably should add that you will be doing all of those if you vote no too.

We dont know this for sure ,why haven't they already done it,we know they need a yes vote for some aspects of the deal,witholding pay for 8 months is illegal they need that change of contract or be in breach

Because we have been in dispute for nearly a year now. Bringing in big changes such as those in the agreement during negotiations would have been, at the very least, in bad faith and might have not been possible while there was external moderation of talks. Now, we have both the CWU and RM saying that changes will be enforced either way. You would think that the lawyers of both would understand employment contract law more competently than either of us.

That and RM have already said they will be enforcing change with or without an agreement and union involvement. What do you offer to dispute this claim?

[Ppat98]

You are wasting your time trying to explain this. We have RM, the CWU, the PEC and financial experts, telling us that the company is in a terrible position, but the ‘experts’ on here will always claim otherwise, despite offering no evidence to the contrary.

Exactly, I remember many on here were suggesting that the books were cooked & manipulated with the annual results. Despite the greed of the board & the previous CEO. They would have to be complete morons to commit fraud. RM has many professional eye's on it. Commiting fraud or embellishing accounts would be damn near impossible to get away with.

The reality is RM is a dying business & it's also true the board misused funds which is resulted in this situation now.

[timbo1234]

Timbo,
John is correct. If this is a simplistic view thats because it is a simple ballot. "Do you accept the proposed agreement or not?"

We are not being balloted to sort out the future of the company. Period. Your opinion on how best to perform your daily duties is neither requested or required. So what leads you to believe anyone is listening to your thoughts of what will happen with RM in the future.

Whilst we're at it, let's just clear this up shall we. This is not yet an agreement. It is, at this stage, a proposal. Nothing has been agreed. It has been recommended by our representatives but it has not been agreed. So there's that.

If anyone wants me to get involved in ideas of how best to turn around the fortunes of this company going forward....well that's going to involve a massive pay increase and a completely different set of t&c's for me, or you or whoever takes that job. That's t&c's that will be unaffected by this proposal by the way!

Our ballot is for the proposal that's been presented. Unless of course you have been given the go ahead to be the new CEO, CFO, COO of RM or GS of CWU? If not, then you, me and everyone else is voting on the proposal that has been put in front of us. End of.

I know what a yes vote brings. A no vote does what then? You have no idea forward apart from RM and CWU will have to work it out somehow, somewhere, sometime between some people. I don't vote for an outcome and a future I have no control over. End of. Don't want any of the jobs by the way - but at least I get a say in the CWU ones.

It is not in my remit as a postal worker to put any ideas forward to resolve this. If you have voted in any election at anytime, then I'm afraid you have voted for an outcome and future you have no control over. You , like the rest of us are powerless once the result is returned. I'm not saying you did, but if you had voted for the conservatives I'm sure you had no control of the current state of affairs of the party and country. Unless of course, you have the power to control those outcomes, which obviously you don't.

So yeah, crack on and explain all the control you feel you have currently and how you can see into the future to predict how RM will honour the "agreement" and feel free to demonstrate how the current CWU leadership will stop RM steam rolling over anything and everything as they see fit. Crack on and use that crystal ball of yours to tell us in all absolute certainty what that yes vote brings in the future. Don't come at me with the basics either...make a stand and tell me exactly how you see a yes vote playing out 18 months from now. I promise I'll read it through. Just please don't come back at me with the same old "what's your plan B" nonsense.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We all have a vote to use as we choose. How you choose to vote is your choice & I have no issue with that in any way. End of.

So it's OK for you to predict doom , gloom and despondency of a yes vote in your leaflet but not OK for the pragmatists among us to predict the future if a No vote. Seems very one sided which is typical of Trotskyist thinking. It's 2023 not 1923. Incidentally I would not vote Tory if my life depended on it. Neither would I vote for a party that wanted to go backwards to "the good old days".

1) it's not my leaflet.
2) you were asked to predict the future of a yes vote.
3) Trotskyist? Seriously? !
4) so have you ever voted or not?

Look, I'm quite happy to have an intelligent 2 way conversation but please read the posts carefully before responding.

The one certainty is that RM have succeeded in dividing a workforce. Whether it is a NO or a YES the CWU will be the losers because according to this site people will leave in their thousands if it is a YES. If it is a NO then again according to this site people are calling for major changes of tactics and personnel in the CWU. It is not just a simple yes/no without thinking about the "what ifs ". As humans that is what we do. The result will be what it will be. All that matters after is that people continue to support the union and each other. By the way I vote and have voted in every general and local and union election I'm entitled to vote in. If you don't vote nothing gets changed. That is a definite.

[Slim2none]

Ppat98 & Lou, are you two tickling each others tummies?

So, you don't think they could or would "cook the books" as that would be fraud? Which happens everyday around the world and some actually do seem to get away with it. So no, I'd say its not near impossible.

You do think they mis-used funds and that the board and previous CEO are greedy? Just maybe they will continue to be that way even with a new CEO and permission from our senior union representatives, to ride rough shod over what little remains of our t&c's.

You also forgot to mention them being "economical with the truth", .... under oath no less!

Yep, sound like stand up guys to me. But you know, "win the ballot, win the dispute", "better the devil you know" etc etc etc.

Vote how you want to vote. Believe what you want. Others will do the same. The result will be the result.

[Slim2none]

timbo1234

Agreed, the result will be the result. Of course you vote, we all vote. We all vote in the hope of change. We do not however have any control over the change that comes, good or bad. Ask yourself how many tory voters saw the current absolute sh*tshow coming? But they did believe in their vote and the power to change things. Truthfully, all we can do is hope and keep on voting as our conscience tells us.

Divided workforce, check. Diminished CWU, check.
Free to do as they please? I believe a yes vote gives them complete freedom to do whatever they like, whilst appearing to go through the IR framework....which they won't. The CWU will have zero power to halt or even mitigate the changes that come next. But.....
They'll both package whatever comes next as a win for both sides just like they are doing now.

[Foxel]

Back in the old days, we always used to work during the dark early morning. Currently I get out about 9am, and sit in rush hour traffic. Nobody is working for 'free', unless you're saying we'll be paid more in the summer.

Vote against by all means as is all of our democratic right, but if you're doing it based on that you're fool coz most of it is complete rubbish.

If you leave before summer, you have indeed worked for free.

[X_hamster]

Back in the old days, we always used to work during the dark early morning. Currently I get out about 9am, and sit in rush hour traffic. Nobody is working for 'free', unless you're saying we'll be paid more in the summer.

Vote against by all means as is all of our democratic right, but if you're doing it based on that you're fool coz most of it is complete rubbish.

If you leave before summer, you have indeed worked for free.

And its only legal if enough saps vote for it.

Many seem desperate to work for free.

[pieoftheday]

Ppat98 & Lou, are you two tickling each others tummies?

So, you don't think they could or would "cook the books" as that would be fraud? Which happens everyday around the world and some actually do seem to get away with it. So no, I'd say its not near impossible.

You do think they mis-used funds and that the board and previous CEO are greedy? Just maybe they will continue to be that way even with a new CEO and permission from our senior union representatives, to ride rough shod over what little remains of our t&c's.

You also forgot to mention them being "economical with the truth", .... under oath no less!

Yep, sound like stand up guys to me. But you know, "win the ballot, win the dispute", "better the devil you know" etc etc etc.

Vote how you want to vote. Believe what you want. Others will do the same. The result will be the result.

Just been on the news about M+S and WHSmiths paying below the minimum wage going back to 2017, so yeah businesses will try and get away with all sorts including fraud