re: why I'm voting no

[scotchy1962]

It's not fear that is driving people towards a yes vote and it's childish and disengenous to pretend that those people are scared.

What we are looking at is not some unknown boogeyman scenario but the reality of where the last 12 months has taken us and Royal Mail's behaviour during that time.

It is a pragmatic realisation that despite the full support of the membership the CWU has been largely powerless to stop that behaviour.

I'm not scared of the consequences of a No vote, I simply see it as an extremely pointless and very damaging and dangerous situation that I would be incredibly stupid to walk into and doubly so without an exit strategy.

That's what a No vote with a weak hand, a split membership, an ineffective leadership and no plan is.

Not frightening.
Just incredibly stupid.

So what you're saying is, whatever strategy RM want to use we just roll over and let them use it.
What message does that send come the next bout of "negotiations"?
I don't doubt they have been extremely difficult to deal with, but the union have been out manoeuvred from the start.
It's time we made a stand and let them know we won't allow them to change our contracts without a fight.
And that's right, there are parts they cannot change without resorting to fire and re-hire.
These should be our red lines- you know, the ones we started out with and the ones the union seem to now allow to be given up in return for keeping themselves in the workplace.
Get the ballot out, enough is enough.

Was striking for 18days through black fri,cyber mon, then xmas not taking a stand.an they hardly flinched.

I believe Aiden they flinched to the tune of a £billion, the thing is they were prepared to take the hit, we dont seem to be prepared to do the same.
I know you believe in voting yes to this as theres no alternative, but there is, there always is and its called a NO vote followed by whatever it takes, the same as RM did, until somebody changes direction.
Trying to make out that saying people are scared is childish or disingenuous is just not true, people are genuinely scared of the outcome all i am trying to do is allay their fears, trying to use what i say as a weapon against me is childish and disingenuous.

[Woody Guthrie]

all i am trying to do is allay their fears

With what?
Blind faith that something better might happen?
The fact that you believe this is allaying any fear anyone might have scares me more than any consequences of a No vote.

I know you believe in voting yes to this as theres no alternative, but there is, there always is and its called a NO vote followed by whatever it takes, the same as RM did, until somebody changes direction.

You're not getting it, the Yes voters know there is an alternative but we can see as witnessed in your statement above that it is nothing more than empty rhetoric without a coherent plan, it's a s**t alternative.

"Whatever it takes" means f**k all.
It isn't a strategy or a plan or even an idea.
It's a desperate prayer.

[richietns]

It's not fear that is driving people towards a yes vote and it's childish and disengenous to pretend that those people are scared.

What we are looking at is not some unknown boogeyman scenario but the reality of where the last 12 months has taken us and Royal Mail's behaviour during that time.

It is a pragmatic realisation that despite the full support of the membership the CWU has been largely powerless to stop that behaviour.

I'm not scared of the consequences of a No vote, I simply see it as an extremely pointless and very damaging and dangerous situation that I would be incredibly stupid to walk into and doubly so without an exit strategy.

That's what a No vote with a weak hand, a split membership, an ineffective leadership and no plan is.

Not frightening.
Just incredibly stupid.

So what you're saying is, whatever strategy RM want to use we just roll over and let them use it.
What message does that send come the next bout of "negotiations"?
I don't doubt they have been extremely difficult to deal with, but the union have been out manoeuvred from the start.
It's time we made a stand and let them know we won't allow them to change our contracts without a fight.
And that's right, there are parts they cannot change without resorting to fire and re-hire.
These should be our red lines- you know, the ones we started out with and the ones the union seem to now allow to be given up in return for keeping themselves in the workplace.
Get the ballot out, enough is enough.

Was striking for 18days through black fri,cyber mon, then xmas not taking a stand.an they hardly flinched.

I believe Aiden they flinched to the tune of a £billion,

the thing is they were prepared to take the hit

, we dont seem to be prepared to do the same.
I know you believe in voting yes to this as theres no alternative, but there is, there always is and its called a NO vote followed by whatever it takes, the same as RM did, until somebody changes direction.
Trying to make out that saying people are scared is childish or disingenuous is just not true, people are genuinely scared of the outcome all i am trying to do is allay their fears, trying to use what i say as a weapon against me is childish and disingenuous.

They took a hit with other peoples money and still walk away with bundles of cash we unfortunately can not be as gung ho.

[LouBarlow]

A no vote will be returned.

Read the current 800+ comments on fbook.

People are sick and tired and want their NO vote in

Not just a Yes its still a job nonsense.

800 comments means a no vote? You realise there are over 100,000 members?

[guardianangel]

A no vote will be returned.

Read the current 800+ comments on fbook.

People are sick and tired and want their NO vote in

Not just a Yes its still a job nonsense.

800 comments means a no vote? You realise there are over 100,000 members?

I obviously live in a different part of the country because the mass majority i speak too are voting NO i don't know where you get your "the majority will vote yes",i think you maybe a bit disappointed or delusional,why do you think they are stalling they have their ears to the ground and are getting massive feedback from reps of a No vote coming,unless they could magically get a 5 grand lump sum to turn heads i think we could be in for a long winter.

[LouBarlow]

A no vote will be returned.

Read the current 800+ comments on fbook.

People are sick and tired and want their NO vote in

Not just a Yes its still a job nonsense.

800 comments means a no vote? You realise there are over 100,000 members?

I obviously live in a different part of the country because the mass majority i speak too are voting NO i don't know where you get your "the majority will vote yes",i think you maybe a bit disappointed or delusional,why do you think they are stalling they have their ears to the ground and are getting massive feedback from reps of a No vote coming,unless they could magically get a 5 grand lump sum to turn heads i think we could be in for a long winter.

Where did I say a majority would vote yes? I wouldn’t be so presumptuous to even guess, based on a few hundred people on Facebook, or indeed here. That is delusional. When you say ‘mass majority’ how many have you actually polled on this? Unless you have asked thousands of people, then any feedback is statistically irrelevant.

[X_hamster]

A no vote will be returned.

Read the current 800+ comments on fbook.

People are sick and tired and want their NO vote in

Not just a Yes its still a job nonsense.

800 comments means a no vote? You realise there are over 100,000 members?

Yes my friend.

Haven't met many Yessers, a handful on here.

Whilst it may only be 800-1k comments, its a very interesting cross section of views from all over the country.

Your view may differ on that, fair enough, but we will certainly find out when the ballot returns in September or something.

[X_hamster]

A no vote will be returned.

Read the current 800+ comments on fbook.

People are sick and tired and want their NO vote in

Not just a Yes its still a job nonsense.

800 comments means a no vote? You realise there are over 100,000 members?

Yes my friend.

Haven't met many Yessers, a handful on here.

Whilst it may only be 800-1k comments, its a very interesting cross section of views from all over the country.

Your view may differ on that, fair enough, but we will certainly find out when the ballot returns in September or something.

However not withstanding the hundreds of staff leaving weekly and the hundreds leaving the union weekly, if they stall long enough they might just sneak it.

[Woody Guthrie]

There's a huge difference between saying you'll vote No which is free from any consequences and actually voting No.

If we ever get the chance to vote I suspect there's going to be a lot of red faces on here.

[guardianangel]

A no vote will be returned.

Read the current 800+ comments on fbook.

People are sick and tired and want their NO vote in

Not just a Yes its still a job nonsense.

800 comments means a no vote? You realise there are over 100,000 members?

I obviously live in a different part of the country because the mass majority i speak too are voting NO i don't know where you get your "the majority will vote yes",i think you maybe a bit disappointed or delusional,why do you think they are stalling they have their ears to the ground and are getting massive feedback from reps of a No vote coming,unless they could magically get a 5 grand lump sum to turn heads i think we could be in for a long winter.

Where did I say a majority would vote yes? I wouldn’t be so presumptuous to even guess, based on a few hundred people on Facebook, or indeed here. That is delusional. When you say ‘mass majority’ how many have you actually polled on this? Unless you have asked thousands of people, then any feedback is statistically irrelevant.

Dress it up as much as you want as massive NO is coming whenever the union gives us our democratic vote.

[Woody Guthrie]

A massive No is not coming.
That's just nonsense.

That kind of response would need to be organised, the membership are not represented by the 800 comments on Facebook, if you think about that logically you'll understand the dangers of listening only to the loudest voices.

Who is going to show support for this agreement on FB?
Just to receive dogs abuse from a bunch of keyboard warriors?

What's far more likely if a vote were held tomorrow is a very poor turnout with probably a 60-65% yes vote. It might be even closer but it won't be a massive anything.

Apathy and resignation are the strongest feelings right now but who can be arsed putting that on Facebook?

[k979aaa]

Rejection of the agreement will have consequences as acceptance will we need a better plan than delaying a vote or hoping we will all forget about it time is something we cannot get back!

[Linden14]

I'm amazed at the mess rm and the cwu have created

[antcpfc]

I'm amazed at the mess rm and the cwu have created

Are you new here

[nuisance]

A massive No is not coming.
That's just nonsense.

That kind of response would need to be organised, the membership are not represented by the 800 comments on Facebook, if you think about that logically you'll understand the dangers of listening only to the loudest voices.

Who is going to show support for this agreement on FB?
Just to receive dogs abuse from a bunch of keyboard warriors?

What's far more likely if a vote were held tomorrow is a very poor turnout with probably a 60-65% yes vote. It might be even closer but it won't be a massive anything.

Apathy and resignation are the strongest feelings right now but who can be arsed putting that on Facebook?

Oh good, apathy and resignation save the day, eh?

Better get that ballot out so we can get that little effort over with and mope off ready to move on?

Dream on! We do a bleeding hike every day, a lot of us are tired but not in the way you're talking, and the way to help it isn't to back this deal.

Most find the later starts unpalatable, many find them impossible to marry into their life schedules.

Many fear they will be exploited and even exhausted if they sign up to the potential banking of hours to be added in the winter.

Many fear the implications of cut sick pay. How many sick and injured posties will have to carry on working, spreading illness and doing themselves permanent injuries?

The list of blatant problems with this agreement are endless before you even start on revisions and culture, how can you be so confident that more people have been bored and depressed into acceptance than haven't? If they have that is an utter tragedy of the union's making for giving some support to the joke of a deal before calling and withdrawing a vote on it. There needs to be some strong action soon, this is getting totally ludicrous.