Royal Mail going bust is NEVER going to happen

[k979aaa]

What you just said we can vote on a deal and that's it and in my opinion reject it send it back even if they impose the deal they will be f****d pardon my French!

Your hard to read mate is it a yes or no from you

He has posted elsewhere that he was going to vote yes but has now decided to vote no.

I said minded to before the full facts get a grip you two thing is till we know more and by the day it comes out less inclined to do so we formulate our opinion not what is said on here but what is posted by RM and the true facts that neither will post on here! At any rate we all need too revaluate our relationships with management and others given time!

[LouBarlow]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.

There isn’t any propaganda. They have literally outlined all of the changes in working conditions and the pay offer and recommended you vote fo it. That is their job.

[timbo1234]

The CWU have endorsed this deal as the best that is likely to get based on the information shared with it by RM. If you are angry at the way the CWU is run you can quite easily change that when officials come up for election. The phrase used on this thread is grow a spine to people who are voting yes. Don't mistake courage with pragmatism. It also seems that certain individuals are suggesting that the CWU has been bought off by RM and the deal is a joint stitch up of the workforce. REALLY??? I MEAN REALLY ?? If someone thinks that then no amount of evidence or statements from the CWU will change their minds. It's like Trump's election conspiracy rants. I agree it is not a good deal. But RM is capable of doing anything if it is a NO vote and the CWU will be in no position to stop it.

[scotchy1962]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.

There isn’t any propaganda. They have literally outlined all of the changes in working conditions and the pay offer and recommended you vote fo it. That is their job.

It says and i quote "Propaganda is the dissemination of information- facts, arguments, rumours, half truths, or lies- to influence public opinion" now what part of that doesnt apply here smart boy. I just love smart asses they make my day. If you believe that isnt what they are doing than theres little hope for you. Vote yes/no and suffer the consequences but dont try to influence us with bullshit!

[LouBarlow]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.

There isn’t any propaganda. They have literally outlined all of the changes in working conditions and the pay offer and recommended you vote fo it. That is their job.

It says and i quote "Propaganda is the dissemination of information- facts, arguments, rumours, half truths, or lies- to influence public opinion" now what part of that doesnt apply here smart boy. I just love smart asses they make my day. If you believe that isnt what they are doing than theres little hope for you. Vote yes/no and suffer the consequences but dont try to influence us with bullshit!

Save your propaganda for when you really need it, you said. Outlining the facts of the agreement is necessary now so that we can vote on said deal with all the information necessary. There are no arguments in the proposal. No rumours. No half truths and certainly no lies. It has been kept deliberately simple and concise so even dim-wits can understand it. Have you read it?

[scotchy1962]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.

There isn’t any propaganda. They have literally outlined all of the changes in working conditions and the pay offer and recommended you vote fo it. That is their job.

It says and i quote "Propaganda is the dissemination of information- facts, arguments, rumours, half truths, or lies- to influence public opinion" now what part of that doesnt apply here smart boy. I just love smart asses they make my day. If you believe that isnt what they are doing than theres little hope for you. Vote yes/no and suffer the consequences but dont try to influence us with bullshit!

Save your propaganda for when you really need it, you said. Outlining the facts of the agreement is necessary now so that we can vote on said deal with all the information necessary. There are no arguments in the proposal. No rumours. No half truths and certainly no lies. It has been kept deliberately simple and concise so even dim-wits can understand it. Have you read it?

You see within the proposals there are a lot of grey areas, and how you read the "Facts" is obviously different from how the majority on here read the "Facts", your opinion is what you are giving me not what is in the agreement and i dont believe a lot of what you say or RM/CWU for that matter. If you think theres no propaganda in there then the "Dim-wits" phrase comes back to haunt you somewhat. I refer you back to my finishing statement on my last post.

[k979aaa]

If it goes bust IT is due to the inept leadership of the whole company this is but one false hood that RM could go bust they at the top are peeing their pants if this deal goes through and shiting themselfs if it don't . Bust NO corrupt YES

[postslippete]

RM is capable of doing anything if it is a NO vote and the CWU will be in no position to stop it.

RM desperately need an agreement with the union. If the company just simply impose changes, for example, later shifts and staff have genuine reasons why they can't work those hours, then they are at the mercy of unfair dismissal and employment tribunals. And this applies even if the changes are agreed with the CWU as staff can submit grievances if they can't work the hours. But it is always best practice for the employer to agree it with the union first.

If they can't then like Martin says they would need to have a business plan and show how they need these changes otherwise they would go into administration. Very unlikely that this would get this far because for this to happen the company would need to show that it is not financially sustainable. This would open a can of worms because IDS has proven to be profitable in the past 5 years with the exception of last year. It still owns GLS which is profitable and has a strong balance sheet with £1.7 billion in available liquidity. The RM board would be in the spotlight again over gross financial mismanagement as to how they went from making record profits to record losses. It's the government that makes the decision of whether RM will be put into administration and there's plenty of other things that it can do especially as regards the USO.

[TopperGas]

RM is capable of doing anything if it is a NO vote and the CWU will be in no position to stop it.

RM desperately need an agreement with the union. If the company just simply impose changes, for example, later shifts and staff have genuine reasons why they can't work those hours, then they are at the mercy of unfair dismissal and employment tribunals. And this applies even if the changes are agreed with the CWU as staff can submit grievances if they can't work the hours. But it is always best practice for the employer to agree it with the union first.

If they can't then like Martin says they would need to have a business plan and show how they need these changes otherwise they would go into administration. Very unlikely that this would get this far because for this to happen the company would need to show that it is not financially sustainable. This would open a can of worms because IDS has proven to be profitable in the past 5 years with the exception of last year. It still owns GLS which is profitable and has a strong balance sheet with £1.7 billion in available liquidity. The RM board would be in the spotlight again over gross financial mismanagement as to how they went from making record profits to record losses. It's the government that makes the decision of whether RM will be put into administration and there's plenty of other things that it can do especially as regards the USO.

If they are that desperate why have the CWU agreed such a poor offer, the only reasons to accept seems to be if you're really desperate for the pay rise & £500 lump sum or simply can't face any further IA. I doubt anybody is thinking they'll accept it as it's a good offer.

[LouBarlow]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.

There isn’t any propaganda. They have literally outlined all of the changes in working conditions and the pay offer and recommended you vote fo it. That is their job.

It says and i quote "Propaganda is the dissemination of information- facts, arguments, rumours, half truths, or lies- to influence public opinion" now what part of that doesnt apply here smart boy. I just love smart asses they make my day. If you believe that isnt what they are doing than theres little hope for you. Vote yes/no and suffer the consequences but dont try to influence us with bullshit!

Save your propaganda for when you really need it, you said. Outlining the facts of the agreement is necessary now so that we can vote on said deal with all the information necessary. There are no arguments in the proposal. No rumours. No half truths and certainly no lies. It has been kept deliberately simple and concise so even dim-wits can understand it. Have you read it?

You see within the proposals there are a lot of grey areas, and how you read the "Facts" is obviously different from how the majority on here read the "Facts", your opinion is what you are giving me not what is in the agreement and i dont believe a lot of what you say or RM/CWU for that matter. If you think theres no propaganda in there then the "Dim-wits" phrase comes back to haunt you somewhat. I refer you back to my finishing statement on my last post.

Written statements agreed by both sides of a dispute are pretty much to be taken at face value. If both agree then there has to be some certainty to them, otherwise they wouldn’t have agreed on them. Then again, apparently you don’t believe what I say, what Royal Mail say or the CWU say, so you obviously have some trust issues there. Do you believe anyone?

[k979aaa]

RM is capable of doing anything if it is a NO vote and the CWU will be in no position to stop it.

RM desperately need an agreement with the union. If the company just simply impose changes, for example, later shifts and staff have genuine reasons why they can't work those hours, then they are at the mercy of unfair dismissal and employment tribunals. And this applies even if the changes are agreed with the CWU as staff can submit grievances if they can't work the hours. But it is always best practice for the employer to agree it with the union first.

If they can't then like Martin says they would need to have a business plan and show how they need these changes otherwise they would go into administration. Very unlikely that this would get this far because for this to happen the company would need to show that it is not financially sustainable. This would open a can of worms because IDS has proven to be profitable in the past 5 years with the exception of last year. It still owns GLS which is profitable and has a strong balance sheet with £1.7 billion in available liquidity. The RM board would be in the spotlight again over gross financial mismanagement as to how they went from making record profits to record losses. It's the government that makes the decision of whether RM will be put into administration and there's plenty of other things that it can do especially as regards the USO.

If they are that desperate why have the CWU agreed such a poor offer, the only reasons to accept seems to be if you're really desperate for the pay rise & £500 lump sum or simply can't face any further IA. I doubt anybody is thinking they'll accept it as it's a good offer.

It is a crap offer hence why it is on the table they really do think we are over paid and underworked an droves will do our job. And for that matter anyone can do your job mantra well most cannot do it for a month or two to years well I guess not saying anymore!

[scotchy1962]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.

There isn’t any propaganda. They have literally outlined all of the changes in working conditions and the pay offer and recommended you vote fo it. That is their job.

It says and i quote "Propaganda is the dissemination of information- facts, arguments, rumours, half truths, or lies- to influence public opinion" now what part of that doesnt apply here smart boy. I just love smart asses they make my day. If you believe that isnt what they are doing than theres little hope for you. Vote yes/no and suffer the consequences but dont try to influence us with bullshit!

Save your propaganda for when you really need it, you said. Outlining the facts of the agreement is necessary now so that we can vote on said deal with all the information necessary. There are no arguments in the proposal. No rumours. No half truths and certainly no lies. It has been kept deliberately simple and concise so even dim-wits can understand it. Have you read it?

You see within the proposals there are a lot of grey areas, and how you read the "Facts" is obviously different from how the majority on here read the "Facts", your opinion is what you are giving me not what is in the agreement and i dont believe a lot of what you say or RM/CWU for that matter. If you think theres no propaganda in there then the "Dim-wits" phrase comes back to haunt you somewhat. I refer you back to my finishing statement on my last post.

Written statements agreed by both sides of a dispute are pretty much to be taken at face value. If both agree then there has to be some certainty to them, otherwise they wouldn’t have agreed on them. Then again, apparently you don’t believe what I say, what Royal Mail say or the CWU say, so you obviously have some trust issues there. Do you believe anyone?

Ah lou sure its great to have a bit of banter with you, but really? Trust issues is that the best you can do!
It must be great in LouLand where nobody lies and RM have always and will always tell the truth even to parliament.
This comes down to opinions, i have mine, you have yours, maybe i have a bit more in mine seeing as how RM make a habit of being liberal with the truth but who knows.
You obviously would like a yes vote, but this is a democratic vote and there needs to be balance, not just all one side. The union think its the best they can get, i dont, if you dont like it to bad, vote yes and suffer the consequences, vote NO and you dont know what the consequences are. Its that simple.

[LouBarlow]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.

There isn’t any propaganda. They have literally outlined all of the changes in working conditions and the pay offer and recommended you vote fo it. That is their job.

It says and i quote "Propaganda is the dissemination of information- facts, arguments, rumours, half truths, or lies- to influence public opinion" now what part of that doesnt apply here smart boy. I just love smart asses they make my day. If you believe that isnt what they are doing than theres little hope for you. Vote yes/no and suffer the consequences but dont try to influence us with bullshit!

Save your propaganda for when you really need it, you said. Outlining the facts of the agreement is necessary now so that we can vote on said deal with all the information necessary. There are no arguments in the proposal. No rumours. No half truths and certainly no lies. It has been kept deliberately simple and concise so even dim-wits can understand it. Have you read it?

You see within the proposals there are a lot of grey areas, and how you read the "Facts" is obviously different from how the majority on here read the "Facts", your opinion is what you are giving me not what is in the agreement and i dont believe a lot of what you say or RM/CWU for that matter. If you think theres no propaganda in there then the "Dim-wits" phrase comes back to haunt you somewhat. I refer you back to my finishing statement on my last post.

Written statements agreed by both sides of a dispute are pretty much to be taken at face value. If both agree then there has to be some certainty to them, otherwise they wouldn’t have agreed on them. Then again, apparently you don’t believe what I say, what Royal Mail say or the CWU say, so you obviously have some trust issues there. Do you believe anyone?

Ah lou sure its great to have a bit of banter with you, but really? Trust issues is that the best you can do!
It must be great in LouLand where nobody lies and RM have always and will always tell the truth even to parliament.
This comes down to opinions, i have mine, you have yours, maybe i have a bit more in mine seeing as how RM make a habit of being liberal with the truth but who knows.
You obviously would like a yes vote, but this is a democratic vote and there needs to be balance, not just all one side. The union think its the best they can get, i dont, if you dont like it to bad, vote yes and suffer the consequences, vote NO and you dont know what the consequences are. Its that simple.

What inside knowledge do you have, that neither RM or the CWU are privy to, that convinces you that a better deal will somehow miraculously emerge if the vote comes back no? Nobody seems to have an answer for this. I wonder why?

[SpacePhoenix]

In a way it does feel a little like heads they win, tails we lose

[postslippete]

What inside knowledge do you have, that neither RM or the CWU are privy to, that convinces you that a better deal will somehow miraculously emerge if the vote comes back no? Nobody seems to have an answer for this. I wonder why?

There could be a lump sum on offer to try and push the deal through according to Dave Ward. That suggests to me that there is more money in the pot