Royal Mail going bust is NEVER going to happen

[k979aaa]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

What you just said we can vote on a deal and that's it and in my opinion reject it send it back even if they impose the deal they will be f****d pardon my French!

[postslippete]

If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

The Police?? Apart from them being more concerned with being woke than solving crimes, it's really not their department. If only I had enough evidence to get one of those managers investigated by the serious fraud office. Does anyone have Interpol's phone number to hand?

The term rogue managers cropped up in Select Committee's investigation and some might not disagree with that, especially those reps and colleagues who have been unfairly suspended/sacked. For all we know there could be an element of corruption.

As for the deal on the table I believe it's crap and given my reasons. Whatever Royal Mail and the Union decide afterwards is up to them. If Royal Mail has been clamouring to put the deal on the table now know that the majority of the workforce opposes the deal then surely it will be up to them. If they don't have any morals like you said they will just try and alienate the workforce even further instead.

[timbo1234]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

[Flashman_]

You do realise that Royal Mail are legally obliged to introduce a business plan to avoid going into administration.

Royal Mail made it clear in the talks and their accounts were in the next room which costed up each part of the change and pay deal and obviously when the union reduced these changes then clearly that reduced what monies was associated to that business plan.

They also costed up that an agreement had a significant price tag to the business plan.

A no vote will mean that the business to prove to the market that it could continue to be a going concern would have to produce a business plan without the prospect of an agreement which would mean more change.

In addition there is only one company keeping the

However we had changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

This whole deal and the desperation seemingly expresses here wreaks of Blackmail. As a simple working man, whether I vote for or against it should and will not have any significant impact on this company. You are preying on people`s fear to get it though and that is wrong on so many levels, not least because that is the definition of Blackmail.
I will be voting on this deal in the context of what is a fair deal for me, given what bonuses, dividends and price hikes, royal mail have treated themselves to over the last 2 years or so.
If things are so dire,(which I do not believe) then maybe the company should go into administration, but that's not our fault and nothing I do will change that situation, because, if true it was only incompetent management that got them there.
So stop using fear to blunged people into submission.

[SpacePhoenix]

Even if this deal gets voted for, I wouldn't trust RM to not just ram through a load more changes a few months down the line with some more EA

[sweepster70]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

I disagree. If there is a no vote, and I'm voting yes, I will fully support that vote. I hope in this situation, we will strike hard and long and bring Royal Mail to its knees/Administration. The future will be uncertain, but I will always support a majority.

[aiden01]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

What you just said we can vote on a deal and that's it and in my opinion reject it send it back even if they impose the deal they will be f****d pardon my French!

Your hard to read mate is it a yes or no from you

[stevejm]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

You keep parroting this. Why?

Asset rich - yes
Cash poor? Not exactly. Obviously changes month to month but I read 900 million in cash in the accounts.
If IDS (not RM) has a problem then it is debt and the payments which are becoming due on that debt. But short term cashflow doesn't seem to be a problem either in the accounts or by judging what is happening with day to day expenditure and major investments.

"If it cannot raise money ... the government will be forced to act" - The gov't will not interfere if IDS cannot raise money. None of its business. Only the USO is of interest. How do you know whether a/ IDS needs to raise money? b/ has tried and failed to raise money?

"Administrator's main focus will be to keep the business running" - Of course. But to what end? To meet the requirements of the USO. That can't be done with redundancies of tens of thousands. And who says that a/ administration is necessary and b/ the government would allow special administration ? Simon Thompson ? That stand-up example of honesty and competence?

[LouBarlow]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

What you just said we can vote on a deal and that's it and in my opinion reject it send it back even if they impose the deal they will be f****d pardon my French!

Your hard to read mate is it a yes or no from you

He is hard to read as most of his posts are incomprehensible.

[clashcityrocker]

What you just said we can vote on a deal and that's it and in my opinion reject it send it back even if they impose the deal they will be f****d pardon my French!

Your hard to read mate is it a yes or no from you

He has posted elsewhere that he was going to vote yes but has now decided to vote no.

[scotchy1962]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

[richietns]

Even if this deal gets voted for, I wouldn't trust RM to not just ram through a load more changes a few months down the line with some more EA

We've seen they are totally capable of this but saying that they originally wanted a 3 year deal right at the start to transform the business which the cwu have sort of backed.

[timbo1234]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

[richietns]

Cwu know alot more than us of the internal working of the businesses finances and RMs plans,somethings just can't be stopped RMs corporate takeover is in my opinion decades late compared to other sectors,RM basically have the law on there side and they know it,thats how the rich get richer Ile probably vote yes because the union have obviously exhausted there options.

[scotchy1962]

It seems RM is asset rich but cash poor. If it cannot pay running costs and cannot raise money via the money markets the government will be forced to act. If it appoints an administrator his main focus will be to keep the business running. How he or she does this is anybody's guess. Certainly the biggest cost in RM is staff. Also people on here seem to think RM will be cross subsidised by IDS. It cannot be if the company is broken up. ST has already mentioned this. Most of the anger on this site is aimed at the CWU which is nothing to do with the vote. The CWU structure, personalities, tactics etc can all be changed at the next union officials election. Whatever RM do if it is a NO vote the CWU certainly will be powerless to stop it.

I am angry with the union leaders because it looks like they have given up on us and have bent over backwards for Royal Mail to get a deal done, when 4 months ago they had a totally different point of view

The key to this is Royal Mail's financial position. And whether it's too big to fail is entirely dependant on how it is being managed. They can keep offices understaffed, not paying any overtime and keep failing the USO OR they can throw thousands of agency workers at it and have them half of them sat drinking coffee in the canteen or taking 10 parcels out plus a few oversized...perhaps give the managers another bonus for turning things around as well.

Royal Mail is as corrupt as anything. Just ask any union rep......

I agree with your anger. But it's directed at the CWU. This vote is about the deal currently on the table. Will voting NO bring RM back to the table? Personally I think not. Will RM break the company up, request the USO is suspended and ask the government to enter administration? Nobody knows. This is probably the biggest decision that a workforce ever faced. If RM are corrupt then evidence should be presented to the police for investigation. I think you're confusing being corrupt with a total lack of morals.

Its immaterial wether or not RM will come back to the table, thats not what we are voting for/against. We are voting on whats been proposed in the agreement and thats all.
So i will vote on that and not the hypothetical, administration/EA break up the company crud and its still a NO.
I cant see what anyone who works in delivery could find in anyway positive in this apart from you get a pay rise. It all goes downhill after that.

It's not immaterial or hypothetical.. RM will not renegotiate the deal and run the company how it sees fit. They have shown that already. If it carries out it's threats then it is not just the pay and t&c and pay that is at stake it is the whole structure of RM and in particular the workforce. The CWU will be powerless to stop anything.

In front of us is a pay offer, on said pay offer is no mention of what might happen if you vote No.
Therefore they are hypothetical/immaterial. Is it that hard to understand.
The only people making a issue of this stuff is the scaremongers. Grow a spine and vote the way you feel is best for you, dont listen to the background noise, nobody really knows what will happen in the event it gets rejected, and see what happens.
Nobody should be pressurised into voting a certain way its undemocratic and at the moment we still live in a democracy, thats another reason i am disappointed in the union, they shouldnt be trying too.
Ignore the doom and gloomers and the ones with crystal balls, vote for yourself and at least whatever way it goes you will have a clear conscience.

One question if all of the above is immaterial/hypothetical. Why do you personally think has the CWU endorsed this deal?

I personally think you could be right and its the best they can get, but to endorse it and then to try to sell/pressurise us into accepting it is a flaw.
We are all adults and should be treated as such, dont try to sell me dog poo and tell me its ice-cream.
Call the agreement for what it is and let us decide, save your propaganda for when you really need it.