PAIN IN THE HOLIDAY ENTITLEMENT

kingsmoor · Post by **kingsmoor** » 04 Feb 2008, 13:11

HOLIDAY ENTITLEMENT

WHEN I SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH ROYAL MAIL IT SAID I GET X AMOUNT OF HOLIDAY.
I DONT USUALLY BOTHER TO BOOK HOLIDAY TILL I FIND A CHEAP DEAL THEN BOOK MAYBE A WEEK OR TWO IN ADVANCE.IMAGINE MY SUPRISE WHEN MY MANAGER SAID IVE EARNT 9 DAYS AND THIS IS THE WEKK YOUR HAVING OFF....TOLD ME WHEN IM HAVING HOLIDAY THE OTHER 4 SHE SAYS I CAN CARRY OVER...

AS IF NOT ENOUGH OF A KICK IN THE BALLS THERES A LIST RUNNING IN SENIORITY AND DOOOOHHHH IM AT THE BOTTOM
YOU HAVE TO BOOK TWO WEEKS THEN ONE WEEK THEN ANOTHER..HOW THE FOOK DO I BOOK A DAY HERE A DAY THERE ..ITS JUST WRONG

DOES THIS HAPPEN EVERYWHERE OR IS IT JUST THE SCUM AGAIN IN MY OFFICE?

JUST LIKE CHRISTMAS TIPS I HAD TO HAND IN THEN GET ONE SIXTH OF TOTAL COS IVE ONLY BEEN THERE 2 MONTHS

YOUR THOUGHTS MUCH APPRICATED

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 04 Feb 2008, 14:20

No similar things happen everywhere - at our place it does go on seniority and we had to pick/sort out our weeks for Apr 08 - Apr 09 last October.

kingsmoor · Post by **kingsmoor** » 04 Feb 2008, 14:56

how can this be changed to first come first sevred blued?
can you book a day off here and there?

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 04 Feb 2008, 15:03

kingsmoor wrote:how can this be changed to first come first sevred blued?
can you book a day off here and there?

It can be changed if you disagree with it and can get enough CWU members to get a motion going at conference. If your not in the CWU as an individual you cannot get it changed but there is nothing wrong with trying to get Unions members on your side. This is one of the benefits of collective bargaining, everything is put before a democratic vote and the union back the majority.

Yes I can book odd days as long as the managers agrees and there are gaps on the leave board. Also my position is not much better than you in my section I am no 30 out of 34 on the seniority list.

kingsmoor · Post by **kingsmoor** » 04 Feb 2008, 15:41

thanks blue ...im not a union memeber as you might have gathered but i wont rant about that.but yet another thing to grit my teeth at

thanks for clearing that up

jafferpants · Post by **jafferpants** » 04 Feb 2008, 16:04

Whats all this about picking leave on seniority. We were stopped from doing this in our office a few years ago on the grounds that it was ileagal and leave the post office open to court action on the grounds of disscrimination so what the f***s going on

curly1975 · Post by **curly1975** » 04 Feb 2008, 16:16

jafferpants wrote:Whats all this about picking leave on seniority. We were stopped from doing this in our office a few years ago on the grounds that it was ileagal and leave the post office open to court action on the grounds of disscrimination so what the f***s going on

The claim is that seniority does not discriminate on any grounds, that maybe the case but it still does not offer a fair way of allocating leave.

In my opinion Annual Leave should be allocated via a rotation system so that every member of staff has equal and fair opportunity to get a chance to have the holidays when they want.

A man/woman should have equal opportunity to have the holidays they want to spend quality time with family. Something that is as important as this to a lot of people should not be decided by how long someone has been working there.

The CWU and RM both like to promote themselves as family friendly yet you could have a situation where a new member of staff could wait 7 or 8 years to get time off in the summer when the schools are off so they can have a family holiday.

Does not sound family friendly to me.

Stormproof · Post by **Stormproof** » 04 Feb 2008, 16:21

It took me 4 years to be able to get a week off in the summer holidays with my kids. Now I believe that they start at the top of the list, most senior pick 2 weeks first then works its way down the list, then for the other 2 weeks it the least senior pick first then it works its way back up to the top. Hope that made some sort of sense

Post by **Carnoustie** » 04 Feb 2008, 16:57

curly1975 wrote:
jafferpants wrote:Whats all this about picking leave on seniority. We were stopped from doing this in our office a few years ago on the grounds that it was ileagal and leave the post office open to court action on the grounds of disscrimination so what the f***s going on
The claim is that seniority does not discriminate on any grounds, that maybe the case but it still does not offer a fair way of allocating leave.

In my opinion Annual Leave should be allocated via a rotation system so that every member of staff has equal and fair opportunity to get a chance to have the holidays when they want.

A man/woman should have equal opportunity to have the holidays they want to spend quality time with family. Something that is as important as this to a lot of people should not be decided by how long someone has been working there.

The CWU and RM both like to promote themselves as family friendly yet you could have a situation where a new member of staff could wait 7 or 8 years to get time off in the summer when the schools are off so they can have a family holiday.

Does not sound family friendly to me.

We don't use seniority in our office any more. We use a concept called 'length of service'

It does not discriminate by age, because you can have a situation where someone who joined RM after being made redundant in another firm has less years' service than someone half his age who has several years' service accrued after joining as an 18-year-old. My view is that there is no completely fair system of allocating leave, but seniority (length-of-service) is the least-worst option.

Use 'first come, first served', and it's abused. For example, people will come in and say they've booked a fortnight in Majorca, just to secure those two weeks in summer that they're after, then actually book their package tour at a later date, having denied somebody else the opportunity to have those dates.

Let managers decide who gets first preference? That's a charter for the blue-eyed / brown-nosed boys to get good holidays, and the likes of me to get three weeks in November.

Seniority is the least unfair way of doing it. Everyone understands the concept, and everyone in the office can see immediately if there's any attempt to give preferential treatment to someone whose length of service doesn't warrant it.

One other point I would make to curly1975. What about the single or divorced people ? Aren't they entitled to an equal opportunity to be off in the months when the weather is at it's best ? People need regular time off for their own health, whether they have families or whether they don't.

I've worked for RM for more than ten years, and I got crap holiday weeks when I first started. But I have served my time, and now that I can get the dates I want, you want me to revert to only a 50% (or lower) chance of getting good holidays ? Like the pay deal, my answer to that is a firm NO

curly1975 · Post by **curly1975** » 04 Feb 2008, 17:18

Use a rota system, everybody is in a group, say 1-10, then these groups take turns each year to go first picking when they off.

If group 1 went first this year then next year they would get last pick and group 2 would move to top of list.

Its really not hard to come up with a system to do this!

That way at least everybody can have the opportunity to choose when they off. Ok people picking last may not but their turn will come.

Instead of this Senior Man/Woman farce constantly being KING in the workplace.

The senior man in my office is one of the rudest, ignorant, bone idle lay abouts you would ever possibly meet, but why should he worry, cause he is the "SENIOR MAN" and thats all that seems to count.

My mates who work outside of RM shake their heads in disbelief when the words seniority is mentioned.

And yes i am 50 out of 230 on my office seniority list before anybody accuses me of being a new starter with no service having a rant!

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 04 Feb 2008, 17:21

curly1975 wrote:
jafferpants wrote:Whats all this about picking leave on seniority. We were stopped from doing this in our office a few years ago on the grounds that it was ileagal and leave the post office open to court action on the grounds of disscrimination so what the f***s going on
The claim is that seniority does not discriminate on any grounds, that maybe the case but it still does not offer a fair way of allocating leave.

In my opinion Annual Leave should be allocated via a rotation system so that every member of staff has equal and fair opportunity to get a chance to have the holidays when they want.

A man/woman should have equal opportunity to have the holidays they want to spend quality time with family. Something that is as important as this to a lot of people should not be decided by how long someone has been working there.

The CWU and RM both like to promote themselves as family friendly yet you could have a situation where a new member of staff could wait 7 or 8 years to get time off in the summer when the schools are off so they can have a family holiday.

Does not sound family friendly to me.

Good idea in theory but how do you choose who gets the first position in the rota.

Post by **Carnoustie** » 04 Feb 2008, 17:37

Your system sounds workable, curly, but I can see a flaw straightaway ...

Your system is fine if all staff in the office stay for ten years or more. Everyone will by then have been in every one of the leave 'groups' 1 through to 10 at some point. So they would have had good holiday dates some years, not so good dates other years. Now I know this is unlikely at the moment, but what happens if you get new starters come in to your office ?

Which leave group do they go into, the first time leave forms for their first full year come round ?

Do you put them into
a) Group 10 (crap choice of holidays),
b) Group 1 (best choice of holidays)
c) some other Group ?????

How do you justify putting them to the back of the queue if you despise seniority ?
How do you pacify the people who are due to be in Group 1 (having been in Group 2 the previous leave year), if they find themselves displaced by new entrants who suddenly grab the best dates ?? What method is fair to everybody ???

As I said, seniority isn't fair, but everyone understands how it works, and it rewards loyalty. Don't let your animosity towards one prat cloud the argument. He's probably always been a prat, even when he was a 'junior boy'

Post by **rhino49** » 04 Feb 2008, 17:38

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
curly1975 wrote:
jafferpants wrote:Whats all this about picking leave on seniority. We were stopped from doing this in our office a few years ago on the grounds that it was ileagal and leave the post office open to court action on the grounds of disscrimination so what the f***s going on
The claim is that seniority does not discriminate on any grounds, that maybe the case but it still does not offer a fair way of allocating leave.

In my opinion Annual Leave should be allocated via a rotation system so that every member of staff has equal and fair opportunity to get a chance to have the holidays when they want.

A man/woman should have equal opportunity to have the holidays they want to spend quality time with family. Something that is as important as this to a lot of people should not be decided by how long someone has been working there.

The CWU and RM both like to promote themselves as family friendly yet you could have a situation where a new member of staff could wait 7 or 8 years to get time off in the summer when the schools are off so they can have a family holiday.

Does not sound family friendly to me.
Good idea in theory but how do you choose who gets the first position in the rota.

I think you will find that the first thing people without kids do is try to get a holiday when there are none about - since mine have been independent I can't think of anything worse than a holiday surrounded by noisy families - I think most of the competition for summer months is between staff who have children of school age and they are welcome to them.

kingsmoor · Post by **kingsmoor** » 04 Feb 2008, 17:41

so whats wrong with first cum first serve.nobodys going to book all there weeks at once in such a sysytem...
not many people book holidays years in advance i for one look for a cheap late deal then book holiday
but this system not only means i cant do that but pretty much garentees i never get another summer holiday with my children before they leave school unless i risk a hefty fine for taking my kids outta school

just need some union guys to table a motion...

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 04 Feb 2008, 17:52

kingsmoor wrote:so whats wrong with first cum first serve.nobodys going to book all there weeks at once in such a sysytem...
not many people book holidays years in advance i for one look for a cheap late deal then book holiday
but this system not only means i cant do that but pretty much garentees i never get another summer holiday with my children before they leave school unless i risk a hefty fine for taking my kids outta school

just need some union guys to table a motion...

You might get that through the Union but RM would bin it straight away as it would involve a lot of planning for managements and flexibility on their part.