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Van Sharing

Coronavirus discussion forum.
clashcityrocker
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by clashcityrocker »

vinny79 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 17:00



They cannot dismiss you for a face covering if exempt which they have no legal right to ask for proof of.
What examples of evidence will employees have as proof of exemption for not wearing a mask?

In considering the approach for exemptions. In many cases, employees with an existing health condition will have appropriate medical correspondence, such as hospital letters, consultant letters, NHS letters or appointment cards, OH reports, documented conversations with managers about their condition, e.g. welcome back meetings, rehabilitation plans, attendance reviews, which can be provided as evidence, with the specific condition hidden/redacted (e.g. by an appropriately placed post-it note or using a marker-pen) if the employee chooses. Given the many examples of evidence an employee will likely have, we do not foresee that many employees will be unable to share evidence. In many cases the manager will already be aware of an employee’s condition.


Will Royal Mail be paying employees for proof of their exemption for wearing a mask and any time off incurred to attend doctor’s appointments?

If employees do not have any current or existing evidence (see above examples) of their exemption and an employee advises that a GP fee is going to be involved, then the manager should contact Advice & Support on 0345 6043657. Our aim is to avoid any incurred charges for employees and identify other options. GPs are conducting consultations via phone or web-based option, letters are routinely emailed to patients or are posted if an employee does not have an email address. We do not foresee an employee being offered a face to face appointment and requiring time off and, more importantly, as stated we are looking to identify options of evidence that do not involve the GP or any charges.

Will Royal Mail be offering an Occupational Health referral for anyone who is exempt from wearing a face covering?

Employees can discuss any concerns with their line manager. Managers should contact Advice & Support for advice. If Advice & Support believe that an OH referral is appropriate, they will advise the manager.
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POSTMAN
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by POSTMAN »

There is someone in my office who cannot wear a face covering for medical or other reasons what should they do?

We recognise that some employees are unable to wear face coverings for medical or other reasons, and
that they are not practical to wear for some activities in certain job roles, e.g. in a call centre where full
social distancing measures are in place.

Managers should request evidence of an exemption and can keep records that employees have met the criteria for the
exemption but should not record the specific reason as this is not necessary, even if the employee shares this with the
manager. Ideally a letter from the GP confirming the employee has a valid exemption reason is sufficient.

Employees with an exemption certificate which can be printed off from various online sites or employees wearing a sunflower lanyard still need to present evidence for managers to review.

Speak to your line manager if you have questions or concerns.

What Clash has posted and now me is in the old but still relevant Q&A Corona guidance...
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=94715

The new one in my signature is for whatever reason is a slimmed down version.
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
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vinny79
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by vinny79 »

It’s against the 2010 equality act to ask for proof of exemption.

RM can say what they like but it does not stack up legally.

A doctor will not issue an exemption.

Laughable

From the government website

If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering you do not need to show:

any written evidence of this
an exemption card
This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.

However, some people may feel more comfortable if they are able to show something that explains why they’re not wearing a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

Carrying an exemption card or badge is a personal choice and is not required by law.
mags999
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by mags999 »

who do you think you are calling me a selfish individual at the end of the day i cant see what the hell im doin with it on as wear glasses to see the s**t small printed letters under s**t lighting plus if you dont wear them in pubs whats the bloody point :mad
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POSTMAN
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by POSTMAN »

https://fullfact.org/online/equality-ac ... imination/

Challenging someone for not wearing a face mask isn’t against the Equality Act

Social media posts on Facebook claim you could be fined thousands of pounds under the Equality Act if you challenge someone who is not wearing a face covering. This is not correct.

The posts say: “The government advice is not to challenge people to wear a face covering. This is for GOOD REASON. If you do so, you and your employees may be PERSONALLY LIABLE for AN OFFENCE liable on a summary conviction to pay a fine of up £5,000 - section 112 (Aiding contraventions) of the Equality Act 2010.

“AN ACT OF DISABILITY DISCRIMINATION and be ordered to pay any individual who suffers injury to feelings compensation between £900 and £9,000 - section 119 (Remedies) of the Equality Act 2010 [sic].”

This is not correct.

The government has urged people to be “mindful and respectful” of circumstances when people cannot wear a face covering. They have also said that members of the public should not challenge people who are not wearing one.

Government guidance says premises where face coverings are required should “take reasonable steps to promote compliance with the law”. This includes displaying signage or verbally reminding customers to wear a face covering on their premises.

Additionally, transport operators can deny access to services if passengers refuse to wear a face covering, and both the police and Transport for London officers can issue fines, with repeat offenders in England now risking fines of up to £6,400. The law states it is an offence to fail to wear a face covering if you do not have a reasonable excuse (listed below).

Government guidance states that “those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this”.

The government has created templates for exemption cards that people who are exempt from wearing face masks can choose to carry if they feel more comfortable having them.

So, in summary, people who work in premises where face coverings are required can remind someone to wear a mask, but should be clear that some people are exempt.

Face coverings are mandatory in certain public settings across the UK, such as in supermarkets and on public transport. (There are different rules for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and we’ve written more about face masks here).

What does the Equality Act say?

The Equality Act 2010 legally protects people from discrimination. The Facebook posts incorrectly cite sections 112 and 119 of the Act as evidence that you will be fined if you challenge people who do not wear a face covering and mis-state the law in several ways.

Neither of these sections is about what counts as discrimination, or about face coverings.

Section 112 sets out circumstances when it can be unlawful for someone to knowingly help another person discriminate (for example, it can determine if an employer is legally responsible for an act of discrimination carried out by their employee).

Section 119 is about what remedies are available for people who have brought a successful civil claim for discrimination in a county court. In particular, it makes clear that damages for discrimination can include damages for injury to feelings.

The Equality Act makes service-providers (e.g. shops and restaurants) liable in civil claims for acts of disability discrimination against members of the public. For example, a blind person with a guide dog who has been unjustifiably barred from a shop can claim damages against the shop, including for injury to feelings.

However, a request by the owner of a business (like a shop or restaurant) to a disabled person to wear a mask is very unlikely to result in a successful civil claim for disability discrimination, as long as the business owner has followed the government guidance set out above and not singled out the disabled person for less favourable treatment than other non-disabled customers.

It’s also important to note that the Equality Act does not make it a criminal offence to discriminate against someone, so a request for a customer to wear a mask would not give rise to criminal liability. In fact, as the official Equality and Human Rights Commission explains, claims of discrimination under the Equality Act are dealt with by bringing a civil claim, not by going to the police or criminal courts.

“Criminal liability” relates to criminal offences. If someone is thought to have breached criminal law they are prosecuted by the state and often tried by a jury. If they are found guilty (which must be proved beyond all reasonable doubt), they are sentenced to a criminal penalty like a prison sentence or a fine.

“Civil liability” relates to disagreements between organisations or individuals, such as one private individual suing another private individual (or a business etc), usually for damages. Cases are considered on the balance of probabilities.

In the vast majority of cases, the Equality Act does not create criminal offences but just civil rights of action. Family disputes, personal injury claims, breaches of contract and employment law are areas of civil law.

References in the social media posts to a criminal offence are a misinterpretation of subsection 3 of section 112 of the Equality Act. That subsection says it is a criminal offence to “knowingly or recklessly” make a “false or misleading statement” about there being no breaches of the Equality Act in particular circumstances. This is largely to prevent employers and service providers from avoiding liability for the discriminatory acts of their employees.

Who is exempt from wearing a face covering?
In England, people are exempt from wearing face coverings if:


They are a child under the age of 11 (this age limit is different across the UK)
They cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or impairment, or disability
Wearing a face covering would cause them severe distress
They are speaking to or providing assistance to someone who relies on lip reading, clear sound or facial expressions to communicate
It is needed to avoid harm or injury, or the risk of harm or injury, including if wearing a face covering would negatively impact their ability to exercise or take part in strenuous activity
They are a police officer or another emergency worker, given that this may interfere with their ability to serve the public
There are also scenarios where you can remove a face covering, such as if you are asked to in a bank or by retail staff for identification, when seated to eat or drink in a hospitality premise, when exercising or to take medication.

Thanks to Emma Dixon, barrister at Blackstone Chambers, for contributing to this article.

Correction 3 November 2020

This story has been updated to clarify that members of the public should not challenge people for not wearing face coverings.
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
P13
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by P13 »

vinny79 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 19:04
It’s against the 2010 equality act to ask for proof of exemption.

RM can say what they like but it does not stack up legally.

A doctor will not issue an exemption.

Laughable

From the government website

If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering you do not need to show:

any written evidence of this
an exemption card
This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.

However, some people may feel more comfortable if they are able to show something that explains why they’re not wearing a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

Carrying an exemption card or badge is a personal choice and is not required by law.
Your wrong , the union took legal advice over this and the legal advice was if you ask for reasonable adjustments your employer has a right to ask what your issue is .
vinny79
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by vinny79 »

:cuppa
TrueBlueTerrier
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

vinny79 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 17:00
Read the article and it’s nothing to do with covid.
Indeed that was my point. Just because Covid around makes no difference, if the request from your employer is deemed as reasonable in the totality of circumstances you CAN still be dismissed. I suppose we can only wait till someone really pushes the envelope and volunteers to be a test case.

I am not saying you are wrong about the rules, but what I am saying is it isn't as cut and dried as many think.
vinny79 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 17:00
Please show me where we signed up for this at Royal Mail.
All the applicable LTBs, Joint statements and Policy announcements that Royal Mail and the CWU have released since Covid started. They'd probably be stronger than a "handbook" but I am no employment lawyer so can't say with any certainty.
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TrueBlueTerrier
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

vinny79 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 20:57
:cuppa
viewtopic.php?t=99230
If an employee working in an environment where face coverings are required refuses to wear one, the employer should ask them for the reason. If the employee does not have a legitimate reason for not wearing a face covering, a failure to wear one is likely to be a refusal to follow the employer's reasonable instruction and therefore grounds for beginning a disciplinary process, as well as a potential breach of current health and safety guidance.

Where an employee has a legitimate reason for not wearing a face covering, and is exempt, the employer should consider whether reasonable adjustments are possible in the workplace to allow the employee to work without having to wear a mask, e.g. if they can keep more than 2m distance from other employees or customers.

As above, government guidance states that people are not required to provide medical evidence or a GP letter in these circumstances. This does not mean, however, that it would be unlawful or unreasonable for the employer to ask for such information and evidence. Much in the same way as any other disability or medical issue is handled in an employment context, medical evidence may be required to allow the employer to look into reasonable adjustments. If the employer also has reasonable grounds for thinking that the employee is falsely claiming an exemption, then they will generally be justified in asking for evidence.

If the employer already has information through HR or the individual’s personnel file which shows their disability or a reason why they may be exempt, e.g. PTSD resulting in a fear of the face being touched or covered, then no further evidence would logically be required as it already exists. If the employer has no prior record of any medical issues for that individual employee, it may be reasonable to ask for evidence of this. This will be especially true as the employer will be able to argue that they are simply attempting to comply with the legal mandate for face coverings, and general health and safety concerns.
That's from Union line who are Lawyers known for protecting employees rights over employers demands.

But if you know better :cuppa good luck to you.
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vinny79
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by vinny79 »

Oddly the company are insisting upon proof of exemption from a gp.

My understanding is gp’s will not issue them and the same government guidelines say that you do not need to prove exemption and company policy does not override the 2010 equality act.

Essentially badly thought through and just hoping everyone will go along with it
clashcityrocker
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by clashcityrocker »

vinny79 wrote:
30 Nov 2021, 16:17
Oddly the company are insisting upon proof of exemption from a gp.
If you already have a pre existing condition that RM have been advised of you don't need to prove anything.
You only need to provide proof if you all of a sudden have a disability.
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Cucumber
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by Cucumber »

clashcityrocker wrote:
30 Nov 2021, 16:54
vinny79 wrote:
30 Nov 2021, 16:17
Oddly the company are insisting upon proof of exemption from a gp.
If you already have a pre existing condition that RM have been advised of you don't need to prove anything.
You only need to provide proof if you all of a sudden have a disability.
"I'm done with covid" not being one of the acceptable reasons.
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by postslippete »

mags999 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 19:44
who do you think you are calling me a selfish individual at the end of the day i cant see what the hell im doin with it on as wear glasses to see the s**t small printed letters under s**t lighting plus if you dont wear them in pubs whats the bloody point :mad

This is why the new advice given is bonkers and won't be carried out effectively.


People being forced to wear masks in shops, on buses or in the workplace but not in pubs or restaurants.
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by A2B »

postslippete wrote:
30 Nov 2021, 17:59
mags999 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 19:44
who do you think you are calling me a selfish individual at the end of the day i cant see what the hell im doin with it on as wear glasses to see the s**t small printed letters under s**t lighting plus if you dont wear them in pubs whats the bloody point :mad

This is why the new advice given is bonkers and won't be carried out effectively.


People being forced to wear masks in shops, on buses or in the workplace but not in pubs or restaurants.
People need to travel on public transport to get to their job where they earn money to buy food in shops, you or i do not need to go to a pub or restaurant, you make a personal choice to go there or not.

It really is groundhog day :sad:
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Re: Van Sharing

Post by Cucumber »

A2B wrote:
30 Nov 2021, 18:20
postslippete wrote:
30 Nov 2021, 17:59
mags999 wrote:
29 Nov 2021, 19:44
who do you think you are calling me a selfish individual at the end of the day i cant see what the hell im doin with it on as wear glasses to see the s**t small printed letters under s**t lighting plus if you dont wear them in pubs whats the bloody point :mad

This is why the new advice given is bonkers and won't be carried out effectively.


People being forced to wear masks in shops, on buses or in the workplace but not in pubs or restaurants.
People need to travel on public transport to get to their job where they earn money to buy food in shops, you or i do not need to go to a pub or restaurant, you make a personal choice to go there or not.

It really is groundhog day :sad:

It's as if people deliberately look for a flaw or even a slight contradiction in any advice/requirements to decide not to follow it.
It's pretty simple. You are being asked to be considerate of other people and wear a wafer thin piece of fabric over your mouth AND nose for a brief period of time. It genuinely seems to be too much to ask of many people.