Hoping average holiday pay is imminent

[Dexydog]

What sign off??
The court case is in June.
Or at least there's a hearing then, in Bristol.

[Streets4228]

In my case I have made a rough calculation over 5 years and it's well into several thousands.

I'll take some advice from Benjamin Disraeli "I am prepared for the worst ... but hope for the best"!

I actually don't think the court will allow backpayments for more than a couple of years- imagine someone on a part time contract for decades, they would be owed an eyewatering amount.
But even, say, 2 years, which I think is more reasonable and therefore likely, I would still be owed 2 -3 thousand.
Therefore ANY cash sweetener they might offer is in most cases likely to be insufficient.

I think you will be disappointed with your prediction of 2-3 thousand as you are only entitled to claim average holiday pay for full weeks and for only a maximum of 4 weeks a year. so unless you are on a very low contract in terms of hours and you do about 60 hours a week then maybe your onto your 2-3 grand. FT you are looking at about say 10 hours a week multiplied by 4 so you are looking at about a weeks wage per year.

[Dexydog]

Well I just got my p60 today and my average over the year is 625 a week.
I'm on a 30 hour contract so roughly 350 a week.
Multiply the difference by 4 weeks is 1100 a year. (and the 625 a week doesn't include 6 weeks holiday on 350, so the average will be higher).
Fag packet calculation obviously, but it's not going to be too far out.
Whatever, I repeat ANY crappy sweetener aint gonna cut it with me.

[yellowbelly]

Well I just got my p60 today and my average over the year is 625 a week.
I'm on a 30 hour contract so roughly 350 a week.
Multiply the difference by 4 weeks is 1100 a year. (and the 625 a week doesn't include 6 weeks holiday on 350, so the average will be higher).
Fag packet calculation obviously, but it's not going to be too far out.
Whatever, I repeat ANY crappy sweetener aint gonna cut it with me.

If you've been doing this for five years, have you considered asking/demanding extra contract hours? At least this would
cover part of your OT hours. By my fag packet calcs you must be working at least 15+ hours above your 30hrs per week.

Your DOM must be saving a packet in delivery supplement/pension payments for those extra hours, it could almost be
another duty.

[Dexydog]

Minimum o/t of 25 hours a week.
Very often over 30, sometimes the full 40.
For the last 5 years.
It's a joke tbh, and yet (if I need any more) another reason I wouldn't give the union a penny of my money- there's lots of p/t in the same position at our place, in the union, and not a thing is done about it.
Mention a weekly resource meeting and the gaffers eyes just cloud over and the union does sweet fanny adams.
Pension loss is only on the weeks I'm on leave so I swallow it, as I get the extra put into the pension for the first 8 hours o/t.
But it absolutely isn't right, and needs sorting.
Just waiting for the court to rule and hoping for a bit of a windfall- which actually it isn't as should have been getting it all along.

[world class male]

i honestly don't understand why it's been going on all these years, from acas website

Overtime, commission and bonus
If you regularly get paid overtime, commission or bonuses, your employer must include these payments in at least 4 weeks of your paid holiday.

Some employers might include overtime, commission and bonus payments in your full 5.6 weeks' paid holiday (statutory annual leave), but they do not have to. This is because the law on overtime, commission and bonus payments being included in holiday pay is based on the EU Working Time Directive, which is 4 weeks' holiday only.

[Dexydog]

Well on the face of it RM don't have a leg to stand on.
Let's just hope the court sees right through them and makes them pay.
5 weeks and counting...

[Murdoch]

i honestly don't understand why it's been going on all these years, from acas website

Overtime, commission and bonus
If you regularly get paid overtime, commission or bonuses, your employer must include these payments in at least 4 weeks of your paid holiday.

Some employers might include overtime, commission and bonus payments in your full 5.6 weeks' paid holiday (statutory annual leave), but they do not have to. This is because the law on overtime, commission and bonus payments being included in holiday pay is based on the EU Working Time Directive, which is 4 weeks' holiday only.

The recent Ambulance Worker court case, stated that any "voluntary OT" that was fairly regular and settled should be used in the calculation for Holiday Pay (ie paid at an average), whereas any voluntary OT that is "exceptional and unforeseeable" does not need to be included.

Therefore, Royal Mail must be under the impression that they can argue that all the overtime within Royal Mail is "exceptional and unforeseeable". Haha, talk about a flaky argument. They deliberately hire people on small contracts, don't fill vacancies, and are happy to run the place on OT as it saves them money.

I'm no lawyer, but that's has to be the easiest court case to win ever, almost every DO in the land is completely reliant on OT to meet the terms of USO. My OT is completely regular as my contract bears no relevance to the hours of the duties I cover, same goes for all 25 hour hires covering FT duties (which seems ridiculously commonplace).

Not to mention the latest balls up, the new 35 hour "FT" contracts, all of which in my DO regularly get paid 3 hours OT to perform actual FT 38 hour duties. Exceptional and unforeseen.

[paulus103]

Well on the face of it RM don't have a leg to stand on.
Let's just hope the court sees right through them and makes them pay.
5 weeks and counting...

I made this point on workplace and also commented that agency staff have better pay and conditions than us on average holiday pay,
I was calm about it - although for some reason my comments disappeared 24 hours later...

[Woody Guthrie]

I'm no lawyer, but that's has to be the easiest court case to win ever, almost every DO in the land is completely reliant on OT to meet the terms of USO

Not on paper.
Not according to the IWT.
Not according to the Delivery Forecast Tool.

What you have to understand is that

1. The Tribunal default position is where possible to side with the employer.

2. They are not interested in visiting delivery offices to see the reality of the situation, they will rely on the information presented before them.

3. They only need to win once.

[world class male]

a deal will probably be cooked up where they won't need to backdate any money owed and start from scratch paying an average, which no doubt TP will endorse and get us to agree after a £50 bonus offered to all regardless of hours worked

"if" they do win on the grounds of voluntary overtime, then an official notice should be given for a 1 or 2 week overtime ban and let the sh1t hit the fan
of course this won't happen as they're all cozy together at the top

[SpacePhoenix]

"if" they do win on the grounds of voluntary overtime, then an official notice should be given for a 1 or 2 week overtime ban and let the sh1t hit the fan
of course this won't happen as they're all cozy together at the top

AFAIK that would require a full ballot as I believe that could be classed as unofficial industrial action

[rogersh]

This article clarifies the Voluntary Overtime question. Also I believe RM have been paying those who have made claims.

https://mooreandsmalley.co.uk/wp-conten ... ay-pay.pdf

Recent Holiday pay case

See Willetts V Dudley 2017 Metropolitan Borough Council.
The employees usual pay was made up of on call payments and voluntary overtime. It was intrinsically linked even though it was voluntary. If this happens regularly over a long period of time, it supports the case for ‘normal pay’,
for further information please visit https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/ holiday-pay-regular-voluntary-overtime-included-confirms-eat/

ACAS have revised their guidance and now state:
All types of overtime, including voluntary overtime, must be included when calculating a worker’s statutory holiday pay entitlement. Only overtime that is worked on a genuinely occasional and infrequent basis is exempt.

[Dexydog]

RM were making some payments- these ended around September last year when the court case went to the second hearing I think. (someone at my office received a payment around August, mine was rejected just after on the basis ACAS were dealing with it by now).
It's going to cost RM a lot of money. Or one might argue they should have been paying for years so perhaps they should have allowed for it.
Watch the share price drop like a stone in a few weeks...

[world class male]

"if" they do win on the grounds of voluntary overtime, then an official notice should be given for a 1 or 2 week overtime ban and let the sh1t hit the fan
of course this won't happen as they're all cozy together at the top

AFAIK that would require a full ballot as I believe that could be classed as unofficial industrial action

that's what i mean really in official notice, i.e to ballot us 1st
though if everyone stopped doing " voluntary overtime " if that's what RM & the court say we've been doing all these years, would it industrial action?

will have to wait even longer and see, though we all know their legal teams are miles better than ours, that's why they're waiting on another court outcome