WE HATE THEM BUT DON'T WALK INTO THE TRAP

[jemima]

It's an interesting time now for RM management. RM at DO level has traditionally been remarkably decision-robust, since the primary requirement for successful DO day-to-day operation is the self-motivated human workforce. Decisions made by DOMs could do a lot to make the workforce happier (or more stressed), but unless they were extreme they were unlikely to have much impact on the amount of work that was done.

It may be that the new local flexibility arrangements and other locally negotiated agreements will begin to allow DOMs to develop and exercise real management skills.... and will enable RM to measure each individual manager's success (or failure).... Some DOMs will need extra training in people skills before they can cope in the new environment....

It may be that posties with strong opinions may feel more motivated to try a management job, if they feel that there's a chance they could actually try out some of their ideas.

[Lounge Lizard]

It's an interesting time now for RM management. RM at DO level has traditionally been remarkably decision-robust, since the primary requirement for successful DO day-to-day operation is the self-motivated human workforce. Decisions made by DOMs could do a lot to make the workforce happier (or more stressed), but unless they were extreme they were unlikely to have much impact on the amount of work that was done.

It may be that the new local flexibility arrangements and other locally negotiated agreements will begin to allow DOMs to develop and exercise real management skills.... and will enable RM to measure each individual manager's success (or failure).... Some DOMs will need extra training in people skills before they can cope in the new environment....

It may be that posties with strong opinions may feel more motivated to try a management job, if they feel that there's a chance they could actually try out some of their ideas.

Interesting points. So from now on managers will actually have to manage and with the "self-motivated" workforce losing their self-motivation over recent months this is easier said than done such that the turnover of DOMs is likely to be ever faster than at present. I've been a manaher elsewhere previously, but wouldn't consider it in the Royal Mail now, no matter what the money.

[mailsort6]

Some posties have no chance of becoming managers especially the ones that are strong minded and speak out. The company just want yes men or women, people that are not going to challenge them and do as the senior managers says whether they are wrong or right. Some posties don't even bother applying because they know very well they are not going to get the job.

Most people who can do the managers job well are smart enough to know that they wouldn't be allowed to by senior management and they have no chance of reaching a position in which they can do anything to change the situation.

Both of you sound like you're trying to imply there's some sort of conspiracy going on. The promotion boards aren't run by the people who "know" the applicant, so to think that they're being held back for not being yes men or for being too intelligent is dumb.
Normally failed appicants say things like "I was too clever for them" or "I'm not a yes man" as poor excuses for not getting the job, but that doesn't make it true.

Your first sentence is spot on Tman. Not all offices are them same. You might work at a decent office, but not all offices are the same. Alot of posties would love to become managers and have applied but usually the favourites are given the positions or the favourites are encouraged by managers for the management positions whilst the posties with sense are not asked by the managers. Furthermore, Tman, I know posties that have gone for management interviews and they know the manager/s doing their interviews.

[vigilante]

I don't agree with abuse on this forum but I can see no reason, in moderation, that you cannot swear.
With all the horrible stuff available for perusal on the net a little eff or jeff here and there harms no one.
It's sad that even in our private lives, freedom of speech is not ours and we are bullied into behaving as RM deem correct.
No I would'nt like this site to be closed as it is a great information provider, but why should we be prayed upon by the vultures of commerce for the way we think the company has gone.
We are still in a democratic nation---------------or are we!!!!!?
Frustration is the father of agression and sometimes, because it cannot be done at work, and isn't fair to burden our family, we need a vehicle to vent our frustrations and this site is perfect---------------but now we are not allowed to have our say because bully management will get heavy handed.
SAD and CHILDISH.

[norbet colon]

Some posties have no chance of becoming managers especially the ones that are strong minded and speak out. The company just want yes men or women, people that are not going to challenge them and do as the senior managers says whether they are wrong or right. Some posties don't even bother applying because they know very well they are not going to get the job.

Most people who can do the managers job well are smart enough to know that they wouldn't be allowed to by senior management and they have no chance of reaching a position in which they can do anything to change the situation.

Both of you sound like you're trying to imply there's some sort of conspiracy going on. The promotion boards aren't run by the people who "know" the applicant, so to think that they're being held back for not being yes men or for being too intelligent is dumb.
Normally failed appicants say things like "I was too clever for them" or "I'm not a yes man" as poor excuses for not getting the job, but that doesn't make it true.

Your first sentence is spot on Tman. Not all offices are them same. You might work at a decent office, but not all offices are the same. Alot of posties would love to become managers and have applied but usually the favourites are given the positions or the favourites are encouraged by managers for the management positions whilst the posties with sense are not asked by the managers. Furthermore, Tman, I know posties that have gone for management interviews and they know the manager/s doing their interviews.

Quite a few managers at trial offices have failed the interviews for their own jobs , says everything you want to know about Royal Fail . The surreal nonsense & instituitionalised stupidity that I've seen would be a script-writers dream never mind a conspiracy or plot .

There's plenty with vocational qualifications and have managed in retail that wouldn't touch Royal Fail with a bargepole . Care in the Workplace & The Peter Principle .

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Quite a few managers at trial offices have failed the interviews for their own jobs , says everything you want to know about Royal Fail . The surreal nonsense & institutionalised stupidity that I've seen would be a script-writers dream never mind a conspiracy or plot .

There's plenty with vocational qualifications and have managed in retail that wouldn't touch Royal Fail with a bargepole . Care in the Workplace & The Peter Principle .

Reminds of some joke appraisals

1 Since my last report, he has reached rock bottom and has started to dig.
2 His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid curiosity.
3 I would not allow this staff member to breed.
4 Works well when under constant supervision and cornered like a rat in a trap.
5 When she opens her mouth, it seems that this is only to change whichever foot was previously in there.
6 He would be out of his depth in a puddle.
7 This young lady has delusions of adequacy.
8 She sets low personal standards and then consistently fails to achieve them.
9 This staff member should go far - and the sooner he starts the better.
10 This staff member is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot.

[Ex RM Manager]

Some posties have no chance of becoming managers especially the ones that are strong minded and speak out. The company just want yes men or women, people that are not going to challenge them and do as the senior managers says whether they are wrong or right. Some posties don't even bother applying because they know very well they are not going to get the job.

Most people who can do the managers job well are smart enough to know that they wouldn't be allowed to by senior management and they have no chance of reaching a position in which they can do anything to change the situation.

Both of you sound like you're trying to imply there's some sort of conspiracy going on. The promotion boards aren't run by the people who "know" the applicant, so to think that they're being held back for not being yes men or for being too intelligent is dumb.
Normally failed appicants say things like "I was too clever for them" or "I'm not a yes man" as poor excuses for not getting the job, but that doesn't make it true.

Nonsense. I worked there for years and was told I wasn't "culturally suitable" and despite getting the highest marks out of 700 people who sat the Professional Qualification my year, was told I wasn't "competent" for the role. I firmly believe that interview decisions by external staff are ratified / changed by internal staff who know the person in question, and weed out 'troublemakers'.

I KNOW I'm not a "Yes" Man. And I was told that was why I didn't get the job.

[andy2007]

I don't agree with abuse on this forum but I can see no reason, in moderation, that you cannot swear.
With all the horrible stuff available for perusal on the net a little eff or jeff here and there harms no one.
It's sad that even in our private lives, freedom of speech is not ours and we are bullied into behaving as RM deem correct.
No I would'nt like this site to be closed as it is a great information provider, but why should we be prayed upon by the vultures of commerce for the way we think the company has gone.
We are still in a democratic nation---------------or are we!!!!!?
Frustration is the father of agression and sometimes, because it cannot be done at work, and isn't fair to burden our family, we need a vehicle to vent our frustrations and this site is perfect---------------but now we are not allowed to have our say because bully management will get heavy handed.
SAD and CHILDISH.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we shouldn't swear at all on here (though I may be wrong), but there are some, who rely heavily on swearing, and personal insults.

This thread is a great example of how we SHOULD be doing things. We are all putting reasoned arguments forward, instead of relying on insults.

As I have said earlier: none of us are perfect, and we all swear at some point. As such, it would be unnatural to remove all bad language from RMC. But we have to be careful not to get carried away, or we will frighten off people with different opinions. How will we ever sort out our problems, if we never have a reasoned debate with those who disagree with us?

[bogstandard]

viewed from the outside, some threads on the site looks as though the posties concerned are completely lost the plot, sometimes it is difficult to judge whether what appears to be very near the knuckle to put it mildly is in fact banter accptable to all parties concerned.

The possibility must exist that the business has injected at least 1 of these posters to incite others with the deliberate intent of making the members of the site and the site itself unhinged and give management the opportunity to say to whoever will listen "look at what we have to deal with". This or either my conspiracy theory is just a theory, but i'm not so sure.

[andy2007]

That's exactly the problem, as I see it. You see, feelings are still running high. It doesn't take much to set people off. The point is, that we need to try to take a minute or two, to calm down before posting. It's something that we don't have an opportunity to do in person, which makes it an even more valuable resource. I have posted in anger myself. I know I shouldn't have done. And as it is causing so much trouble when we do so, I am trying to make more of an effort not to do so again.

We just have to try to accept that although there are some people trying to stir things up, there are also people who simply feel passionately, that we are wrong sometimes. If we can put a proper argument to them, and read what they have to say with an open mind, we have a chance of sorting out our problems.

RM must be rubbing their hands with glee, when the read posts by Posties, attacking other Posties, who simply have another opinion. Don't forget, there were very few people willing to say that they would vote yes in the Ballot. Yet it was voted in.

I still feel (rightly or wrongly) that, that is where we went wrong. If we could have discussed the deal with them properly, instead of attacking them, we may have been able to convince them that they were wrong. Now, it's too late. It's only a matter of time before things get really bad!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Responding to Bogstandards' and Andy2007s' posts


Swearing is allowed but should be kept at a minimum and only where its really applicable., otherwise these 2 emoticons would not be on here. :lfo :cfo

IMO as a Moderator what is not allowed are:

1. Posts that identify people. For example John Smith at Packetsgalore Deliver Office just crashed a van is not allowed but - A Postie at a local DO just had a crash - he is ok - is acceptable.

2. No personal abuse of any members is allowed

3. Only POSTMAN can ban people so no one should tell others to leave this forum.

4. Abuse of members of the public and Non-Royal Mail employees is frowned upon, however comments about what idiotic actions they have committed sometimes may merit a swear word, such as describing the abuse you received from them.

5. ON no account are non-RM visitors and members to be abused, treat them with respect, they do not fully understand the banter and culture of working within Royal Mail so they may take offence very easily.

6. What is definitely not allowed is responding to someone's opinion, which differs from yours, with personal abuse, threats of violence or requests to leave. If you cant argue your point clearly and without resorting to any of the above, then don't respond.

For full rules see http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/forum/rules.php

[norbet colon]

Some posties have no chance of becoming managers especially the ones that are strong minded and speak out. The company just want yes men or women, people that are not going to challenge them and do as the senior managers says whether they are wrong or right. Some posties don't even bother applying because they know very well they are not going to get the job.

Most people who can do the managers job well are smart enough to know that they wouldn't be allowed to by senior management and they have no chance of reaching a position in which they can do anything to change the situation.

Both of you sound like you're trying to imply there's some sort of conspiracy going on. The promotion boards aren't run by the people who "know" the applicant, so to think that they're being held back for not being yes men or for being too intelligent is dumb.
Normally failed appicants say things like "I was too clever for them" or "I'm not a yes man" as poor excuses for not getting the job, but that doesn't make it true.

Nonsense. I worked there for years and was told I wasn't "culturally suitable" and despite getting the highest marks out of 700 people who sat the Professional Qualification my year, was told I wasn't "competent" for the role. I firmly believe that interview decisions by external staff are ratified / changed by internal staff who know the person in question, and weed out 'troublemakers'.

I KNOW I'm not a "Yes" Man. And I was told that was why I didn't get the job.

it's happened loads of times in a now privatised Industry , there were orders if you like from Ministers onwards to be followed to the letter or everything was purely to impress people just below them in the foodchain.

Many managers apparently had too many old fashioned ideas about service when Market Thrust was required . There was plenty that certainly did want "thrusting " for their harebrained /half baked "ideas".

I went for a vocational pychometric test for promotion . I was told I was "unsuitable " , these tests introduced by the Dutch only do 66% of the personalty anyway . If there was any non pc issues the tests "suddenly" were just a guide .

The Facilitator told me of my results & apparently many were excellent in many areas .However the Area Manager said these tests were to weed you bolshy lot out to the Branch Chairman .

Some of the idiots that had passed the tests had to be seen to be believed as there was NO independence of thought whatsoever . However even the CEO admitted we got rid of too many experienced people when the job kept going up the wall, but that was contradicting his younger brother .

Plenty of managers from the Moderate Union were only too happy to leave as they all said "I can't work with these idiots in charge "or it was they were constantly undermined by blue eyed boys .

All this macho bully boy stuff is to knock the stuffing out & soften people up for privatisation . They just hope that your'e all daft/gullible and naive enough to believe all that rubbish.

[yorkie]

SPOT ON LOVEJOY


KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK POSTMAN AND HIS FELLOW MODERATORS


MERRY XMAS!!! DRINK DRINK!!!!!!!!!!!!

[norbet colon]

[

There are some really intelligent posties within the business, there are alot of posties with degrees (e.g. business study degrees, economic degrees) and have worked for the company for many years, but they are not given a chance, they are undermined by the managers because the managers are frightened that the more educated posties will take their jobs. The company needs to change their working practices and this also includes managers.

Intelligent posties or not, they can still apply for any jobs which come up, so it's nothing to do with not being given a chance, or frightened managers.
Maybe they're just happy being posties?

Some posties have no chance of becoming managers especially the ones that are strong minded and speak out. The company just want yes men or women, people that are not going to challenge them and do as the senior managers says whether they are wrong or right. Some posties don't even bother applying because they know very well they are not going to get the job.

Royal Mail's always been that way with a culture of mediocracy , however that problem has been excaberated by the Leighton 70's command & control style ; so you just end up with the worst of both cultures .

From experience , you just end up with a load of neurotic old women in charge who are frightened of their own shadows , and that's exactly what AL wants . No other business would have a management structure that is for the benefit of the managers inside it , or a unheard of 15 layers of "management "

[Lounge Lizard]

Some posties have no chance of becoming managers especially the ones that are strong minded and speak out. The company just want yes men or women, people that are not going to challenge them and do as the senior managers says whether they are wrong or right. Some posties don't even bother applying because they know very well they are not going to get the job.

Most people who can do the managers job well are smart enough to know that they wouldn't be allowed to by senior management and they have no chance of reaching a position in which they can do anything to change the situation.

Both of you sound like you're trying to imply there's some sort of conspiracy going on. The promotion boards aren't run by the people who "know" the applicant, so to think that they're being held back for not being yes men or for being too intelligent is dumb.
Normally failed appicants say things like "I was too clever for them" or "I'm not a yes man" as poor excuses for not getting the job, but that doesn't make it true.

The promotion boards don't 'know' the applicant but are they given a report, information or recommrndation from the applicant's current manager, and if so might this count for 90% of the board's decision, what is said at the board being only 10%, and if this is so ( as I know it to be elsewhere ) isn't the promotion board just a sham to make things look fair, the actual decision effectively being that of the applicant's line manager ?