Still lapsing? Sent out when getting back? How much is too much?

[POSTMAN]

Our office is being completely shafted. We are still delivering amazon parcels. We're a small office of 15 duties. On Thursday we got 40 yorks to deliver (3 yorks of letters/flats, about 14 red sleeves (small packets) , and the rest, parcels). We have 3 off on long term sickness therefore we are being asked to lapse other duties which are not being done. Three duties got no letter deliveries at all and nearly all the rest were cut short. It's just an impossible situation with the manager saying he can't get any more staff in.
Lapsing has now become an expected part of our daily duty and I will agree with those who say it's our own fault for doing it (work your time etc.) but we've already said to the manager about everyone finishing on our time and he has said this will be seen as industrial action!

Posting the obvious but you're being bullied, need to flag it up to area mate.
Yes you have to work to your time, even if they get you to do 4 walks lapsing, but forcing you to work over and threatening when you don't want to is naughty.

I love my signature.

[Bahia Feliz]

I know that, but as individuals you don’t have to work over and if unfortunately none of you worked over it’s not action as you would have made your own minds up

Industrial action is a breach of contract.
Unofficial industrial action is not protected in law which would allow the employer the option to terminate your contract.

You would then have to convince an Employment tribunal that it was pure coincidence that the entire office individually made up their minds not to work overtime at the same time. The most important point being the onus is on you to show that the dismissal was unfair.

There's a separate question over whether Royal Mail would go down this route or more likely try to starve you out using casuals but it's high stakes stuff and shouldn't be played around with.

So would RM have to sack all the staff that decided to stop doing overtime if they classed it as unofficial industrial action? It could be 15 or 20 people which would really drop themselves in it.

[Sprattacus]

[no]

[Woody Guthrie]

So would RM have to sack all the staff that decided to stop doing overtime if they classed it as unofficial industrial action?

No they just select one or two, suspend them and the rest of the guys get the message pretty quickly.

They also threaten the union with all kinds of nasty legal stuff for inciting unofficial action which brings the branch crashing in.. not as you would think to offer support but to convince you to end the unofficial action because HQ has been on the phone and the lawyers are getting nervous.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt as they say....

[rambo1]

Just wanted to get a quick feel of some other offices and see if its same as ours :)

Understaffed like I know most are. We've been lapsing since Christmas pressure, every day without fail. Same everywhere else? I KNOW there's no rule that says to take it, just annoys me they have the nerve to put it on us. (and then say we have to tell them if we can't do it, and they'll come to our frame and assess whether they think this is the case).

Also getting sent out on Phase 3 if coming back 'early'. Today arrived back about 20 minutes to time. Whilst clearing stuff away get told need to go and deliver more parcels. Same happening at other offices? Is this my fault, do I really need to just wait before driving back so I don't get sent out again?

Walks haven't been assessed in however long. Hammered this week on letters, parcels, heavy and large. Now doing extras like wiping vans, customer collections, covid kits. And on top of the additional physical toll on body, you're sent out if you come back 10 minutes too early. Fine if you're coming back an hour early and it's a piss easy day but come on...

Can't see your problem. On one hand you profess to be busy, while on the other you say you get back early. Which is it? If you're busy how do you get back early?

You're just an idiot. When I say coming back 20 minutes to time, I mean that's me arriving back with my van with 20 minutes to my time and being asked to go out and do more deliveries. Not accounting for the fact there is work to be done when you get back. Managers go on about keeping frames tidy, not leaving letters or post in bags, doing vehicle checks, but that all apparently goes out the window if there's a duty that hasn't gone out and you're back at the office.

Our job isn't just about time either, it's the physical toll. Yeah, you might come back a few minutes earlier one day than another. Does that mean you've had an easier day? No not always, might just mean 3/4 people weren't in that day and you had to write a few cards. Still shattered when you get home. RM are doing everything on the cheap and we're the ones who do more.

Thanks for politely pointing out I'm an idiot. I'm sorry I thought when you say you're back 20 mins to time, you meant you were back early.....oh hang on, you did, otherwise the manager would have no cause to ask you to do 'extra' work until you finish getting paid that day. Why some people think they still have a right to go home before they finish getting paid for the day I'll never know, and you're calling me an idiot? Of course, you wouldn't have much time to go out and do packets and it would be inefficient to do so, but if you're finishing early when you say it's busy , your walk needs some adding to it, so you won't have that problem any more.

[Woody Guthrie]

Why some people think they still have a right to go home before they finish getting paid for the day I'll never know

It's not rocket science.
The business encourages it.
If they didn't there would be no incentive to work at anything more than the bare minimum performance level and that would lead to more failures.

The business isn't stupid, they want their cake and they want to eat it, they want people to work as fast as possible but they also want to utilise any spare time that creates but you don't get one without the other so it's a delicate balance which means...

if you're finishing early when you say it's busy , your walk needs some adding to it, so you won't have that problem any more.

...is actually the last thing the business actually wants to do because he's likely to default to bare minimum standard and hand it straight back..

I'm not a runner and I don't get back early but you have to understand that there's a lot of gaming going on by Royal Mail and it's not just a case of work your hours.

[mjd24]

Excellent post as usual Woody. Ive said it before but in my opinion, from what ive witnessed during my 14 years as a postie, the average pace/work rate of 90%+ of us postmen and women is far faster/more efficient etc than any minimum standard work rate management could ever set us. It goes without saying that if we all used trolleys and did the job the way we are supposed to then it would add quite a bit of time to how long we take on delivery.

I dont know the extent to which managers and the higher ups are aware of this fact. I suppose to them it doesnt matter either way; if they see people getting back early they are going to want to heap more on us.

But it does feel like a kick in the teeth or almost lack of respect to get back a bit early having done another back breaking day of 10 or so miles walking in often freezing/wet/boiling hot weather to be met with a manager ordering you to go back out with a bundle or two or some packets.

Especially during this time when so many are not even having to return to the office after delivery. Not only are they getting home 20-40+ minutes earlier than those of us that do, but we are then asked to do even more work.

It does feel like terrible management and creates this daily feeling of unfairness and tension and an ongoing “game” of is it too early to go back, shall i risk it. Particularly when, personally speaking, far more often than not im having to work over my time than finishing a bit early. And when it comes to telling a manager you wont be able to complete that day as the workload it too much - we all know the reaction we’re faced with.

Plus theres the fact that the manager stood there with more work for us has in our eyes not really done a comparable days hard graft to what most of us do week in week out.

I dont see the whole sending people back out thing being a good long term plan for us or management, but then ive been thinking that for years and if anything its happening more now than ever before.

[Sprattacus]

[no]

[rambo1]

'hammered this week with letters, parcels heavy and large' , your words. Yet you still get back to your frame (after unloading van, I presume) 20 mins before your finish time and seem to think you have a right to go home. Does it really take you 20 mins to put your 739 pkts on a york and scan a barcode on the wall and log off? You'd be a dream to defend for a union rep.
Wouldn't dream of becoming a manager, far too sensible for that. I'll stand by what I said, if you are as busy as you said and walking into the building 20 mins before finishing time, your walk needs looking at.

[cpsteve]

Its no big deal why not just do a few more packets or retry a few undelivered to take you to your time.

[ThatsNotPlumb]

'hammered this week with letters, parcels heavy and large' , your words. Yet you still get back to your frame (after unloading van, I presume) 20 mins before your finish time and seem to think you have a right to go home. Does it really take you 20 mins to put your 739 pkts on a york and scan a barcode on the wall and log off? You'd be a dream to defend for a union rep.
Wouldn't dream of becoming a manager, far too sensible for that. I'll stand by what I said, if you are as busy as you said and walking into the building 20 mins before finishing time, your walk needs looking at.

I don't mind working over occasionally, but when I make a point of telling them I'm not working beyond my time on a particular day & leave something, I always aim to be getting back to the building with 15-20 minutes spare to give myself plenty of time to park up, empty/wipe down van, take any returned P739 packets where they need to be, place any box collections where they need to be, return van keys, return collection keys, wipe down/return PDA & then sign off.

It takes time to do all that & by the time you get all that sorted at most you'd have a couple of minutes to go to the toilet, wash your hands, head to your frame, grab your bag & be walking out of the door at your designated finish time.

We can't all be hotshots like you & get the van unloaded & all sorted, in 5 minutes or less at the end of a duty.

[twiddledumb]

We have not lapsed since covid started. When it's someones day off their duty gets left in the frame, only tracked and specials go. When someone is on holiday or on the sick their duty goes out once every 2-3 days. Everytime I come in after my day of I have 2 days worth of mail and packets. RM just do not care anymore.

[Marshamp11]

We have not lapsed since covid started. When it's someones day off their duty gets left in the frame, only tracked and specials go. When someone is on holiday or on the sick their duty goes out once every 2-3 days. Everytime I come in after my day of I have 2 days worth of mail and packets. RM just do not care anymore.

Same in my office.

[Cedar_Room]

We have not lapsed since covid started. When it's someones day off their duty gets left in the frame, only tracked and specials go. When someone is on holiday or on the sick their duty goes out once every 2-3 days. Everytime I come in after my day of I have 2 days worth of mail and packets. RM just do not care anymore.

Same at ours.

I was off on Wednesday & returned on Thursday to find 1.5 rows left in the frame. This isn’t uncommon though to be fair I informed my DOM that I wouldn’t be taking any large packets on Thurs in order to catch up & he was fine with that & got them covered...

[Dorset Plodder]

Rurals are somewhat easier to manage if you're going to finish early ...... you normally find a milking herd has held you up while they cross the road!

DOM:....... "The PDA actuals show you sat stationary for 10 mins at this point"! ...... Postie: "Well that was where the cows were crossing the road"!

Moral of the story is: Don't Return to the Office until your finishing time if the DOMs got his eye on you........ that's generally if you have enough work, and work properly. If you're a "Runner" on an "Easy" Duty you can do what you want provided you don't book any overtime. Well that's the way it seems to work in my DO.