The postal workers dispute and the role of the left

[norbet colon]

Support social justice, fight for social inclusion, sound familiar?

Fair points mate. The left have been in the forefront of those movements going back at least to the unemployed campaigns of the 20s and 30s, the anti-fascist campaigns of the 30s to the present day, anti-nuclear gropus, environmental groups, the anti-poll tax campaign, the anti-war movement and more. They're not perfect, but at least they've had a go when not one major political party was willing to become involved.

Correct -the poll tax riots were the beginning of the end for the Tories - Quote Nicholas Ridley " Why should the duke pay more than the dustman" , it was a clever but very underhand idea by Portillo to try & turn the country blue . Equivalent of the paesant's revolts from centuries back .

You got protest & polarization as she was that right wing and had abandoned the pre war consensus .

The Tories had to have a coup to get rid of Baroness Barmy to save their sorry skins , unfortunately Kinnockio had the them on the ropes over Westland but blew it .

Greenham Common certainly got enough media attention , the Tory papers weren't attacking them as a bunch of unwashed dykes for nothing . She was very clever at whipping up jingoisim /nationalisim especially with The Falklands War.

Most Politicans love a war , Sunny Jim was envious of her .

All in of these cases , somebody had to organise things . They've all gone down in Modern/Social History . The Daily Mail was quite a supporter of Moseley in the 30's,which the Express is quite happy to drag up, Royal Family members had links with the facsists

Britain's basically Conservative with a small C , a relatively stable union of the home countries , there hasn't been a revolution for a few centuries . Europe has been a different kettle of fish.

[pcb]

Response to Tman. Your assumption that the "Far Left" has done nothing to advance the cause of the british working class is wrong. Who advanced the cause of the ordinary working when there were no legal restrictions on employers to exploit the employees. It was not the labour party it was the activists who happen to beleive in socialism. It was communists MPs ( Far Left) who went to prison for sedition during the general strike, whilst standing up for the working man. Militant socialists won our rights as trade unionists, it was not just handed over by the bosses. If the workers are so well off how is it that we have tax credits, homeless families, old people dying from cold, uneducated youth roaming the streets who are armed to the teeth, low pay rises, the allowing of bribery for the political class, the stiffling of democracy ref labour party conference, donations row, the reduction of our liberties over percieved threats the list goes on. I am far left, I am also a rep who tries to get the best for my members whilst the government (who have been in power for a DECADE) takes no notice of the union but cow tows to the business men.
I beleive it was Richard Crossman (labour minister) who said that the labour party needs extremists to canvass and do the leg work but they cannot be allowed to take control. Just sums up the labour party!

[Tman]

Response to Tman. Your assumption that the "Far Left" has done nothing to advance the cause of the british working class is wrong. Who advanced the cause of the ordinary working when there were no legal restrictions on employers to exploit the employees. It was not the labour party it was the activists who happen to beleive in socialism. It was communists MPs ( Far Left) who went to prison for sedition during the general strike, whilst standing up for the working man. Militant socialists won our rights as trade unionists, it was not just handed over by the bosses.

Thanks for the history lesson, biased though it may be, but the point is that the Far Left, whether they have been Communist, Maoist, Trotskyite, Marxist, Leninist have all been dreamers, happy to sit in pubs and clubs and dream of the Glorious Revolution, Power to the People and all the other utterly meaningless shite.
The reality is that it was and always will be the good old unsung trade unionists and labour activists who have achieved any benefits or advances for the average worker. The thankless, behind the scenes grind that ensures companies and governments actually take on board the rights and issues of ordinary people.
As another poster so succinctly put it, "you have to be in power to achieve anything" and I couldn't have bettered that for a good point.





If the workers are so well off how is it that we have tax credits, homeless families, old people dying from cold, uneducated youth roaming the streets who are armed to the teeth, low pay rises, the allowing of bribery for the political class, the stiffling of democracy ref labour party conference, donations row, the reduction of our liberties over percieved threats the list goes on. I am far left, I am also a rep who tries to get the best for my members whilst the government (who have been in power for a DECADE) takes no notice of the union but cow tows to the business men.
I beleive it was Richard Crossman (labour minister) who said that the labour party needs extremists to canvass and do the leg work but they cannot be allowed to take control. Just sums up the labour party!

Yeah yeah, it's always easy to state what you feel are society's failings, (especially if you happen to read the Sun, Mirror or Mail) and scapegoat some one or some thing as being the root cause. Even better if you can blow things up out of proportion to make problems appear much worse (uneducated yoof roaming the streets armed to the teeth??!!)
but reality can be far different in many ways.
Want to bet that if/when the Tories get back in next time, the Tory press will feed the uneducated sheep a diet of how wonderful life is, unlike at present where we're subjected to an endless diet of negativity?
Life sure ain't perfect, but it's not as bleak as ome would like to paint it either.

[pcb]

Tories or labour no bloody difference! Whole system relies upon the working class knowing their place and the bosses getting richer no matter who is in charge. As for your assumption that only the labour party did good for the workers, I believe that an idea from a liberal formed the NHS. You summise at the end about a better world, well that what we on the far left want! Tom Mann was a trade unionist, A A clarke was a trade unionist, James Connelly was a trade unionist, John Maclean wa a trade unionist, Jim Higgins was a trade unionist. All worked tirelessly to better the conditions of the workers. Just don't see Blair, Brown, Prescott, Macarthey, Hain, Straw, Plunkett, Harman, JOHNSON, Mandhelson doing the same. Good debate, have to go to work now.

[norbet colon]

Tories or labour no bloody difference! Whole system relies upon the working class knowing their place and the bosses getting richer no matter who is in charge. As for your assumption that only the labour party did good for the workers, I believe that an idea from a liberal formed the NHS. You summise at the end about a better world, well that what we on the far left want! Tom Mann was a trade unionist, A A clarke was a trade unionist, James Connelly was a trade unionist, John Maclean wa a trade unionist, Jim Higgins was a trade unionist. All worked tirelessly to better the conditions of the workers. Just don't see Blair, Brown, Prescott, Macarthey, Hain, Straw, Plunkett, Harman, JOHNSON, Mandhelson doing the same. Good debate, have to go to work now.

-The Deck Chairs on the Titantic -vote for Gordon otherwise you'll get the bogeyman -the centre ground has gone so far to the right , it's the equivalent of the Democrats V The Republicans , Clinton was a C**t , and has done similar things to Dubya but he was good at it . Welcome to US junior
surprised Leighton & Crozier aren't on that car or is Leighton the one with the cigar ? , Leighton 's a New Labour Member , no surprise !


[url=http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2nizUi]
-God help us all !

[IWW Fellow Worker]

Whole system relies upon the working class knowing their place and the bosses getting richer no matter who is in charge.

That's true enough. I suppose its down to what you want from a political system. If it is just to manage capitalist corruption better than the other capitalist parties, with the added ingredient of having no vision or hope for the future of the working class, then there is no other option than to support the Labour Party. And for those who haven't bothered to educate themselves about the history of working class movements, the Labour Party probably is the last word in radicalism. On the other hand, Socialists of all kinds believe a better world is possible.

I believe that an idea from a liberal formed the NHS.

Again, you are quite right. William Beveridge was the architect of the Welfare State and he was a member of the Liberal Party. His ideas were an extention of those brought in by the Lloyd George Government of 1909 which were introduced to head off growing discontent among the working class before WW1.

Tom Mann was a trade unionist, A A clarke was a trade unionist, James Connelly was a trade unionist, John Maclean was a trade unionist, Jim Higgins was a trade unionist. All worked tirelessly to better the conditions of the workers.

All good people to which I would add Annie Beasant, Ben Tillett, Will Thorne, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, Jack Carney, the great James Larkin and the last socialist to become leader of the Labour Party, George Lansbury. I can't imagine any of those men and women telling our members "It's a good deal and they should get back to work!"

[BELIAL]

The original impetus behind the creation of the NHS was far from altruistic. It was driven by the fact that during the Boer War an enourmous percentage of working class recruits were unable to pass the forces medical exam due to malnutrition and physical frailty. Germanys late entry into the empire building race and it's resultant aggresive expansionism meant that large scale conflict was a near certainty.The British ruling class anticipated the need for huge mobilisation and realised that with the working classes being in such poor condition the woul be unlikely to muster the required numbers of effective cannon fodder

[IWW Fellow Worker]

The original impetus behind the creation of the NHS was far from altruistic. It was driven by the fact that during the Boer War an enourmous percentage of working class recruits were unable to pass the forces medical exam due to malnutrition and physical frailty. Germanys late entry into the empire building race and it's resultant aggresive expansionism meant that large scale conflict was a near certainty.The British ruling class anticipated the need for huge mobilisation and realised that with the working classes being in such poor condition the woul be unlikely to muster the required numbers of effective cannon fodder

Certainly the state of health of the pool of cannon fodder disturbed the minds of the ruling class and things hadn't progressed much by 1914, but I still think the industrial unrest from the 1880s with the London Dock Strike, the riots in Tonypandy, the strikes in Belfast, Liverpool, Dublin and Red Clydeside made some concessions inevitable. The same idea was well put by Tory politician Quintin Hogg when he said in 1943, "We must give them reforms or they will give us revolution."

[TrueBlueTerrier]

"We must give them reforms or they will give us revolution."

and if the Union had more leadership perhaps AC and AL would have been saying that

[IWW Fellow Worker]

"We must give them reforms or they will give us revolution."

and if the Union had more leadership perhaps AC and AL would have been saying that

Well, we all know which party Billy and Dave belong to so perhaps it's no surprise AC and their party colleague AL weren't pushed into that situation.

By the way if anyone is interested in that period of history, 'Never Again' by Peter Hennessey is probably as fair and informed account available, and his follow up 'Having It So Good' takes up the story from the end of the Atlee Government through the fifties and Churchill, Eden, Macmillan pulling no punches about Korea, Suez and Kenya on the way. And Teebs, being an ex-RAF lad, you'll find his 'Secret State' interesting as it deals with Britains atomic programme during the Cold War and lists which towns and cities were to be bombed by the Russians and how many A-bombs were aimed at each target.

[k979aaa]

For they :cfo & :lfo work for the "elite" by the "elite" for the rich :cfo & :lfo for the gravy train does not stop but keep's getting bigger every year! For if you are born poor become an MP for you will meet lot's of rich men do what they say and become rich yourself!. FOR GORDON HAS SOLD HIS SOUL AND IS NOT MAN ENOUGH NOT TO BROWN NOSE HIS NEW LABOUR FRIEND'S :cfo & :lfo !.

[L Tommo]

Tories or labour no bloody difference! Whole system relies upon the working class knowing their place and the bosses getting richer no matter who is in charge. As for your assumption that only the labour party did good for the workers, I believe that an idea from a liberal formed the NHS. You summise at the end about a better world, well that what we on the far left want! Tom Mann was a trade unionist, A A clarke was a trade unionist, James Connelly was a trade unionist, John Maclean wa a trade unionist, Jim Higgins was a trade unionist. All worked tirelessly to better the conditions of the workers. Just don't see Blair, Brown, Prescott, Macarthey, Hain, Straw, Plunkett, Harman, JOHNSON, Mandhelson doing the same. Good debate, have to go to work now.

LOVELY POST FELLA.... PCB... top show...

out...

OUT ON THE COBBLES... Thats the only place the parasites and leaches of RM understand we mean business!!

Shame the HQ CWU dont understand it....!!!


out again.

[BELIAL]

The original impetus behind the creation of the NHS was far from altruistic. It was driven by the fact that during the Boer War an enourmous percentage of working class recruits were unable to pass the forces medical exam due to malnutrition and physical frailty. Germanys late entry into the empire building race and it's resultant aggresive expansionism meant that large scale conflict was a near certainty.The British ruling class anticipated the need for huge mobilisation and realised that with the working classes being in such poor condition the woul be unlikely to muster the required numbers of effective cannon fodder

Certainly the state of health of the pool of cannon fodder disturbed the minds of the ruling class and things hadn't progressed much by 1914, but I still think the industrial unrest from the 1880s with the London Dock Strike, the riots in Tonypandy, the strikes in Belfast, Liverpool, Dublin and Red Clydeside made some concessions inevitable. The same idea was well put by Tory politician Quintin Hogg when he said in 1943, "We must give them reforms or they will give us revolution."

Yep the Merthry riots were indeed a wake up call after large numbers of troops were sent in and never reappeared. Also it's difficult to overestimate the effect of the Russian revolution and the extent of the fear of it's possible pan European domino effect. Combine that with large scale demobilisation of weapons trained, battle hardened and angry working class soldiers who had very little to lose and the need for reform becomes more compelling if you want to maintain your priviledged position. Likewise events after WWII, and the need to create a land fit for heroes.
The welfare system social housing ,the NHS were all partly a response to the fear of massive social unrest.

[Big Daz]

Wow

A very interesting topic, ive learnt a few things reading through this.


to all posters !

[Tman]

Wow

A very interesting topic, ive learnt a few things reading through this.

Maybe, but some facts have been skewed badly. The "truth" does depend on who's relating it, and as any study of Far Left countries or parties will show, truth of any sort is not considered necessary or desirable.

Wonder how that North Korean "music broadcasting" satellite is doing.....