SWP distort the truth

[Tman]

" Not true,socialist revolution,lie,doomed,rigged,misleading"and I aint your "friend" scumbag , Its a crap industrial agreement not the end of the universe,Knob

You do seem fond of saying that you're not somebody's friend.
Sad that, as even though you struggle to eloquently put your point across, (Chomsky notwithstanding) we are all ultimately on the same side.
Give the abuse a rest though; barrier-building helps no-one.

[kill Joy]

So where do you go when your little world comes crashing down tomorrow my friend. Will you stay and fight or will you turn and run?

You sound positively ecstatic at the possibility that thousands of people will have worse working conditions than presently exist in Royal Mail.

Nothing ecstatic about it - just a reality check, nothing more nothing less!

[kill Joy]

A colleague recently pointed out an article on the back of Socialist Worker dated 17 November. I have no problems with such organisations or there papers but wot I have a problem with is when they spin the facts so far away from the truth they become lies. I think it is one thing rank and file members puttin there interpretation which isnt necessarily fact but a view. But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

Are you for real ? Even if it was all spin the SWP would still be the baby spinsters in Spin THeme Park ." Outrageous behaviour by the lefties just not cricket ,never catch us good old boys dabbling in such nefarious practices"
As good old Twoman would say in finest Frankie Howard style OOOh please spare us your sooo misplaced righteous indignation

OOOH get you, you really are a wit, more ken dodd than frankie howard, think about it!!!

Real - me, you better believe it pal! I aint the one with my head fimly stuck in the sand. Only misplaced in your view cos clearly only your pious view counts.

Wot do you mean if it "was all spin" of course it is, oh and here's another quote from the same article: "The lesson is clear - we must be flexible when management demand it". This is not true and you well know it. This laungage from people who wish to lead a socialist revolution is frankly outrageous. So wots your point - it's ok to lie to workers, sorry those who do that are doomed to lead no one anywhere other than down the garden path.

What are the likes of you and the SWP going to do tomorrow when the vote is a definitive 'Yes' - cry foul, say the vote was rigged, blame ward and hayes. Wot are the same going to say when they find out most of the branches and workplaces where there was a recomendation to vote No, that they actualy voted Yes. I hope you in particular take a good look at yourself and wake up to the reality. Any road to socialism is going to be a long hard slog - you'll get no where misleading people.

So where do you go when your little world comes crashing down tomorrow my friend. Will you stay and fight or will you turn and run?

Ever so sorry .did I touch a nerve? You seem to be Babbling somewhat ,perhaps a touch rabid, try deep breathing or meditation.

" Not true,socialist revolution,lie,doomed,rigged,misleading"and I aint your "friend" scumbag , Its a crap industrial agreement not the end of the universe,Knob

From frankie howard to Scumbag & Knob - Well, well your true colors have finally emerged. Somehow I thought they would, evidently you can dish it but not take it. I suppose abuse is easier than dealing with the arguement.

[BELIAL]

" Not true,socialist revolution,lie,doomed,rigged,misleading"and I aint your "friend" scumbag , Its a crap industrial agreement not the end of the universe,Knob

You do seem fond of saying that you're not somebody's friend.
Sad that, as even though you struggle to eloquently put your point across, (Chomsky notwithstanding) we are all ultimately on the same side.
Give the abuse a rest though; barrier-building helps no-one.

Glad you've done some reading ,was'nt that intellectual after all was it, fairly simple really.
Can't say I'm particularly fond of not being anyones friend but I do think they should be chosen wisely, and as the saying should go, with friends like you who needs Alan.
Pleased you appreciate the depth of my struggle, but given the content and tone of your posts, I think Your assumption that we are on the same side is mistaken.

As for your instructions regarding abuse,well you may be accustomed to issuing orders and having them obeyed, but I shall continue to reserve my abuse for those that warrant it.
So up yours you pompous Quisling

[BELIAL]

A colleague recently pointed out an article on the back of Socialist Worker dated 17 November. I have no problems with such organisations or there papers but wot I have a problem with is when they spin the facts so far away from the truth they become lies. I think it is one thing rank and file members puttin there interpretation which isnt necessarily fact but a view. But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

Are you for real ? Even if it was all spin the SWP would still be the baby spinsters in Spin THeme Park ." Outrageous behaviour by the lefties just not cricket ,never catch us good old boys dabbling in such nefarious practices"
As good old Twoman would say in finest Frankie Howard style OOOh please spare us your sooo misplaced righteous indignation

OOOH get you, you really are a wit, more ken dodd than frankie howard, think about it!!!

Real - me, you better believe it pal! I aint the one with my head fimly stuck in the sand. Only misplaced in your view cos clearly only your pious view counts.

Wot do you mean if it "was all spin" of course it is, oh and here's another quote from the same article: "The lesson is clear - we must be flexible when management demand it". This is not true and you well know it. This laungage from people who wish to lead a socialist revolution is frankly outrageous. So wots your point - it's ok to lie to workers, sorry those who do that are doomed to lead no one anywhere other than down the garden path.

What are the likes of you and the SWP going to do tomorrow when the vote is a definitive 'Yes' - cry foul, say the vote was rigged, blame ward and hayes. Wot are the same going to say when they find out most of the branches and workplaces where there was a recomendation to vote No, that they actualy voted Yes. I hope you in particular take a good look at yourself and wake up to the reality. Any road to socialism is going to be a long hard slog - you'll get no where misleading people.

So where do you go when your little world comes crashing down tomorrow my friend. Will you stay and fight or will you turn and run?

Ever so sorry .did I touch a nerve? You seem to be Babbling somewhat ,perhaps a touch rabid, try deep breathing or meditation.

" Not true,socialist revolution,lie,doomed,rigged,misleading"and I aint your "friend" scumbag , Its a crap industrial agreement not the end of the universe,Knob

From frankie howard to Scumbag & Knob - Well, well your true colors have finally emerged. Somehow I thought they would, evidently you can dish it but not take it. I suppose abuse is easier than dealing with the arguement.

Sorry if you were in any doubt about my true colours never tried to hide them. For the sake of clarity and those who's perceptive powers are a little below par-
I hold in utmost contempt all those who strive to deny honest working men and women the just rewards of their labours. Is that clear enough for you?
I'm afraid I failed to notice anything being dished out, but feel free to try again and I'll make an effort to take it.
When you come up with an argument I will be really pleased for you and to debate with you. Please note ARGUMENT implies reasoning, so you need facts, analysis and you draw logical conclusions,these can differ depending on the weight apportioned to various factual considerations this in turn is what gives rise to debate :cfo

[Tman]

[

Glad you've done some reading ,was'nt that intellectual after all was it, fairly simple really.

We can agree on Chomsky's not intellectual, but life's too short to give such drivel more than a glance.

Can't say I'm particularly fond of not being anyones friend but I do think they should be chosen wisely, and as the saying should go, with friends like you who needs Alan.
Pleased you appreciate the depth of my struggle, but given the content and tone of your posts, I think Your assumption that we are on the same side is mistaken.

What, we don't all work for RM?

As for your instructions regarding abuse,well you may be accustomed to issuing orders and having them obeyed, but I shall continue to reserve my abuse for those that warrant it.
So up yours you pompous Quisling

{Sigh}
As we're all here voluntarily,no-one needs or warrants abuse. That's the last resort of the idiotic (or as it sometimes appears to be, the only resort of the idiotic) and not worth the time taken to either read or type.
Nice to see that yet another thread ends up with the same old faces dishing out the same old crap, and all entirely unrelated to the original point.