Complainants v Angard / royal mail

Failureisnotanoption · Post by **Failureisnotanoption** » 13 Aug 2019, 16:43

Just received an e-mail regarding the provisional hearing on Thursday this week. complainants v Angard /RM they are denaying on all points in this case. including that Angard employees are not under AWR rules and therefore no case to answer most claimants are from the Leeds MC I left earlier this year after nearly 4 years at my MC not Leeds may I add as far as I was concerned I was under AWR rules how they can state otherwise what an unreal company. They constantly broke rules on all points mentioned in it and have continued to do so even since the KOCUR case a while back. So hope they get there comeuppance for there contempt of there casual workforce. Part of e-mail is below

We have a Preliminary Hearing listed at 10am on 15 August 2019 in the Leeds Employment Tribunal with an allocated hearing time of 1 day. Our counsel, Adam Ohringer, will be making representations and I will also be in attendance. The Judge will give directions at the hearing which will set out how the case progresses and highlight key deadlines that all parties will need to adhere to in the lead up to a possible final Hearing.

The Judge will also hear evidence on a preliminary issue of law which has been raise by the Respondents in the Kocur litigation. They are disputing whether the Agency Worker Regulations apply to the Claimant or not. Our counsel does not consider their argument is a strong one and we have permission to make submissions in response that seek to persuade the Tribunal that the Respondent’s application of the law is incorrect.

We will of course update you with the outcome of the Preliminary Hearing next week and set out our next steps however please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any queries in the meantime.

Kind regards

nothingatthemoment · Post by **nothingatthemoment** » 14 Aug 2019, 12:02

What a brazen and arrogant lot they are .
There's not a doubt that everyone who has worked for Angard once passed 12 weeks are covered by AWR Regulations.
That is a ludicrous statement to make .
It sounds like they are grasping at straws.

Failureisnotanoption · Post by **Failureisnotanoption** » 14 Aug 2019, 16:59

Have read that Mr Kocur has been back in court in July. Relating to thinking that agencey staff are entitled to 39 hours a week same as RM after 12 weeks. it was thrown out as it would be total fantasy that anything like that would happen from Angard /RM. i new the score when I was there you are entitled to nothing especially hours . Will see what happens on the other points in this case swipe card . Unpaid Christmas bonus . No use of gym facilities. Wrong holiday pay. Etc. Etc And my most hated one deduction of half hour pay every shift . Mr Kocur and partner have been added to this claim too not sure if that helps as this will be the 3rd time the same couple have been involved in a claim against RM/Angard. But it is large amount of claims this time not just them.

Post by **SpacePhoenix** » 14 Aug 2019, 17:26

Years ago when i started as a casual yu'd get laid off for a couple of weeks every 12 weeks so the AWR stuff didn't apply. How many Angard get shifts for 12 weeks in a row?

ennabee · Post by **ennabee** » 14 Aug 2019, 20:33

SpacePhoenix wrote:Years ago when i started as a casual yu'd get laid off for a couple of weeks every 12 weeks so the AWR stuff didn't apply. How many Angard get shifts for 12 weeks in a row?

When i started in 2012 (same time as Angard) I didnt do 12 weeks in a row but worked 12 from about 16 weeks and qualified**. I think if you were a Royal Mail Casual, even a year round one rather than Xmas, the the AWR doesn't apply, as "internal" casuals don't qualify.

** Sure of this as I corresponded with Angard about it - Kept the emails until recently

Failureisnotanoption · Post by **Failureisnotanoption** » 14 Aug 2019, 21:00

So you are saying they have a case that any casual has no rights and the AWR is not relevant. Can’t believe that is true as far as I was concerned I was under AWR rules while I was there and many others would have the same opinion. RM/Angard trying to use or find a loophole in an existing rule for casual staff no matter what profession you are in is unbelievable. So anybody in there MC at this time has no rights in 2019 that’s astonishing if true might as well be in a Victorian mill .

ennabee · Post by **ennabee** » 15 Aug 2019, 10:06

Failureisnotanoption wrote:So you are saying they have a case that any casual has no rights and the AWR is not relevant. Can’t believe that is true as far as I was concerned I was under AWR rules while I was there and many others would have the same opinion. RM/Angard trying to use or find a loophole in an existing rule for casual staff no matter what profession you are in is unbelievable. So anybody in there MC at this time has no rights in 2019 that’s astonishing if true might as well be in a Victorian mill .

Not sure which post you are referring too. As far as as I'm concerned any one who works for Angard after 12 weeks is under AWR. RM casuals only work at Christmas nowadays but before Angard, "Year-round" Casuals were RM internal. As far as I remember Angard's role coincided with the passing of AWR legislation. There is an Angard notice board at our MC that shows the rates of pay "after 12 weeks" with rates from £12 - ish to above £18. They wouldn't pay those rates if they didn't have to under AWR! If there is one where you worked it would be a good idea to try to get a photo of it.

A job just advertised by Angard

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GG ... tivrt=jobs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pay and Benefits:

After completing 12 calendar weeks of service with Angard Staffing, pay rates will increase to match Royal Mail permanent employees, in line with Agency Workers Regulations (AWR). Terms and conditions apply.

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 15 Aug 2019, 20:33

SpacePhoenix wrote:Years ago when i started as a casual yu'd get laid off for a couple of weeks every 12 weeks so the AWR stuff didn't apply. How many Angard get shifts for 12 weeks in a row?

So it’s not 12 consecutive weeks, it’s 12 weeks of work without a break (ie going without a shift) of more than 6 weeks. I started in late January and got to 12 weeks at the end of May - think my longest break without a shift was two weeks. Since then I’ve had at least one shift a week, luckily. Also if you don’t get a shift one week but you’ve booked holiday it doesn’t count as a break.

My pay after 12 weeks went from minimum wage to just over £13 an hour, with paid breaks. We seem to get the same treatment as RM staff in that regard. It’s frustrating not having swipe cards - at my old job even agency staff could access the site (they used fingerprint recognition). That’s my only gripe really in terms of AWR.

Failureisnotanoption · Post by **Failureisnotanoption** » 15 Aug 2019, 21:32

Paid breaks only came in April this year. I had nearly 4 years of unpaid breaks think of losing 7 pound per shift for that amount of time. RM will just come up with Angard are on more money than RM. untrue it’s all relative with all the perks like shift bonus RM get etc

ennabee · Post by **ennabee** » 16 Aug 2019, 10:00

Failureisnotanoption wrote:Paid breaks only came in April this year. I had nearly 4 years of unpaid breaks think of losing 7 pound per shift for that amount of time. RM will just come up with Angard are on more money than RM. untrue it’s all relative with all the perks like shift bonus RM get etc

It was about 4 years ago at our MC when paid breaks were withdrawn - AWR Angard workers got paid breaks before then.
Occasionally some managers tried to stop by taking them off our signing in/time sheets, but they got restored (until about 4 years ago). Also some tried to enforce shorter Angard non-AWR breaks for staff who were on AWR, but this didn't last long each time. Don't know about other MC's.

Post by **cobrakai** » 05 Nov 2019, 16:43

What happened with this case?? Did rm just make it disappear

NW11851 · Post by **NW11851** » 05 Nov 2019, 17:04

I would like to know this as well.

As far as I know I, also, am one of those being represented.

I, too, have not heard anything from the solicitors or anyone else for months.

I’m hoping it will get to an EAT soon.

Post by **Xeonus** » 06 Nov 2019, 23:32

Glad that I am not the only person curious about what is happening. It is entirely possibly that Royal Mail has too much on their plate already and has some legal right to put additional problems on hold until strikes potential of royal mail staff is solved somehow.
Its just mess after mess for a few years now it seems like!

NW11851 · Post by **NW11851** » 08 Nov 2019, 09:35

I understand that the case is due to be held in mid-2020.

work · Post by **work** » 08 Nov 2019, 17:07

NW11851 wrote:I understand that the case is due to be held in mid-2020.

after the rmg/cwu current dispute issues which might allow ALL STAFF to be tret with equal contempt by RMG...it sure seems to be heading to the universal gig parcel economy strategy for ALL EMPLOYEES...the CEO is a union breaker and is being employed by RMG for exactly that purpose...the bigger 5 year picture is on the table already - and the CWUnion is NOT invited to the process of change/plans afoot....it's gonna be a hard ol time for all people if they don't VOTE for a better way on 12th/12th...the capitalists will have their way if you don't: you have been warned