CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

RTP · Post by **RTP** » 26 Jul 2019, 16:16

The same ballot that is STILL open to infiltration. Yep that's the one.

Did I mention the unions urging eligible members to vote for Corbyn?

The ballot is open to a small percentage of Labour voters. Of the top of my head Labour had increased their membership during the last leadership challenge to around half a million. Nearly 13M voted Labour . I suspect that many voted for Labour despite Corbyn not because of him.

Look Labour always has and always will be the party of the working class, but open your eyes and look what has happened since the last General Election.

Corbyns leadership has managed to let the Lib Dems rise like a phoenix from the ashes. A party that was all but dead is now actually polling above Labour ffs.

Will those same people still vote for Labour despite Corbyn in a General Election. I suspect many more will not and it's looking likely that we will find out sooner rather than later.

The only good thing the tories have going for them is their leadership voting system. The MP's choose the final 2 and then it goes to the membership.
You know MP's that have been elected by the general public to serve their constituents. Yep those ones.

Ok granted they have ended up with Boris, but we are still stuck with Corbyn.

Strange times.

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 26 Jul 2019, 17:37

All the rhetoric, the whys and hows and student politics are pretty much meaningless now.
The General Election will be soon, Corbyn must win or we're all screwed, Farage will more than likely agree a deal only to field candidates in seats where they can do the most damage to Labour if Boris promises a no deal Brexit. Labour needs a plan, a big f***ing plan and they need it fast.

Corbyn's finest hour or Corbyn's last stand?

The peeps will ultimately decide but the stakes on this potential election are higher than they've ever been, if Boris and his cabinet full of zealots get a sizeable mandate to govern for the next five years the damage they could do to the working classes is frightening and if it does come to pass the entire PLP , the leadership, momentum and everyone responsible for shaping this present Labour party should all remove themselves from politics entirely because they've just got it very very wrong. There will be no hiding place dark enough.

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 26 Jul 2019, 17:45

The ballot’s open to anyone who supports Labour - the biggest barrier to greater participation was put up by Corbyn’s opponents, who tried to price people out by raising the cost of registering as a supporter. Again, why do Corbyn’s critics dislike democracy so much?

Lots of people voted for Labour when it was led by Blair, Brown and Miliband despite having deep and often completely justified reservations. The alternative’s always the Tories. I trust, perhaps naively, that anyone on the ‘liberal-left’ will use their vote wisely and tactically in the next general election with that in mind.

Polls, meh. But the Lib Dems aren’t polling above Labour - again, arguments against Corbyn are always undermined by this sort of bullsh*t. https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelect ... 1731234816" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’d like Labour to be 10 or 15 points ahead but I don’t fear a general election - Labour almost tied a two horse race when the Tories had a twenty point lead. A narrow Labour lead in a four horse race when it’s all up for grabs? Bring it on. Labour has a brilliant manifesto and a huge grassroots base that’ll fight tooth and nail for a political, economic and social revolution in this country. It’s not what people want, it’s what they desperately *need*, and the best thing folk that don’t like the Tories can do is vote Labour. That’s it. Literally save people’s lives with one cross in a box - even if you have to hold your nose. Just do it.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 26 Jul 2019, 19:15

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Labour has a brilliant manifesto and a huge grassroots base that’ll fight tooth and nail for a political, economic and social revolution in this country. It’s not what people want, it’s what they desperately *need*, and the best thing folk that don’t like the Tories can do is vote Labour. That’s it. Literally save people’s lives with one cross in a box - even if you have to hold your nose. Just do it.

"Brilliant manifesto"? "Huge grassroots base"?
So good that even in Corbyn's own constituency the Labour candidate came third? This "hold your nose" thing seems to apply more to traditional Labour voters voting for the more Right wing parties than your scenario.
If Corbyn hasn't got his true message and appeal sorted in three+ years he's not going to. His EU referendum about-face just about finished him for many. At best a vacillating fool, at worst a sad friendless hypocrite.
Face it, we're now stuck with Johnson (or worse) purely down to the head-in-the-sand politics of Corbyn and co.

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 26 Jul 2019, 19:43

Third in some meaningless elections.

Your bitterness is embarrassing and worrying in equal measure. Just vote Labour if you’re not as spiteful as you are resentful, cheers.

postslippete · Post by **postslippete** » 26 Jul 2019, 20:32

Woody Guthrie wrote:
That being said it seems totally bonkers to me that we should agree to give them £39 billion up front without getting something really significant back in return.
It's a legal obligation we signed up to in 2013, just like car finance you can't just say f**k it, I don't want the car anymore so I'm not going to pay the finance.

There are two obvious problems with not paying it,

1. There's nothing to stop the EU taking us to court for that huge amount of cash and humiliating us that way. Lawyers get rich, the bill gets higher yadda, yadda, yadda.

2. Just like bumping any finance agreement it screws your credit rating, who is going to agree to these wonderful new trade deals with a country that doesn't even pay what its due, certainly not anyone in Europe....

It's another empty threat, more embarrassing than anything else.
What's next, I'll get my big brother to batter you?

Hmmmm

Seems like all your posts start with the same style of derogatory comment, but as so often you answer the point you think was made rather than the point that actually was being made.

All I said was why did we initially agree to pay £39 billion upfront without getting anything really significant back in return?? £39 billion just seems like a figure plucked out of thin air considering it was an 'estimate' and that the EU were actually demanding a lot more than that at the time.

But see-ing as you have an opinion on the 'divorce bill'...

What exactly is our 'debt' to the EU? What we signed up to in 2013 was a 2014 to 2020 budget with the EU. We have had 3 years of political impasse and have still been paying our contributions anyway. Because of this I've read reports the bill could now well be £33 billion.

Some lawyers will argue that the Withdrawal Agreement was an agreement in principle and is not a binding debt until the contract was signed - which parliament hasn't done. However, I am pragmatic enough to think that we will pay something but can we really compare this "divorce bill" to car finance?? Sure, we are already paying our membership contributions till 2020 but how will the EU get the rest of it that we supposedly owe? Will it be on Direct Debit of an extra £1 billion a month or will we be paying off lump sums in response to how well Europe treats us with these wonderful trade deals that you were talking about? Are we not owed anything in assets for leaving Europe apart from that crappy EU flag momento?

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 26 Jul 2019, 21:44

26l34 wrote:Third in some meaningless elections.

Meaningless to you,only because Labour came third. I doubt you would be quite so dismissive had Labour done better.
Then again, they were far from "meaningless" anymore than the last set of local elections where Labour also did far worse than predicted against a hopeless Tory party in disarray.
A good barometer of how, despite your (and others) continuing blind banner-waving, Labour under Corbyn are going down the sh*tpipe very rapidly.

Your bitterness is embarrassing and worrying in equal measure. Just vote Labour if you’re not as spiteful as you are resentful, cheers

Rather a meaningless statement, but you're right, and I will vote Labour again just as soon as the party returns to some sort of electable reality and clears out the cringingly embarrassing vote-losers like Corbyn, MacDonnell and Abbott, and to a lesser degree Lady Nugee and Rebecca Wrong-Daily. Until that happy time I'll sit at home on polling day and ruefully reflect on how such political dead-beats made it to the top of this once-proud political force.

k979aaa · Post by **k979aaa** » 27 Jul 2019, 00:08

Perhaps the above poster should remind him/herself that the labour party was once a great institution till it was hijacked by Blair and Brown and co and became New Labour or old Conservatives as it was beforehand the real thing is not the antisemitism of the Labour party as it stands but the pro Zionist elements in the conservative party and it's backers who once supported New Labour not only that. But the TRUMP factor is now part of policy of the UK government as Boris Johnson a fellow new yorker seeking a trade deal to make us better than America and break the policy of one Donald J Trump of America first policy just remember who still is in the staff of the oval office after all the resignations and dismissals. His daughter is one and she is married to a Zionist by any standards why do you think the whole IRAN deal was shelved and now we are involved in this shady business by our trading of oil by the use of tankers and we now find our Naval power sadly lacking more tory cuts one can only guess at the future of the RN But as it now stands the last labour government that was was even half socialist was in 1974! So in all that time conservative governments have since relied on Zionist supporting governments of the USA even though some administrations did try to find peace for all strategy of which most governments in the world supported resolutions to bring about peace in the middle east to the problems we created in the early 1900's it is with out doubt that 6 million jew's were murdered by the NAZI's in WW2 but that does not give them the right to do the same to Palestinians two wrongs do not make a right!

RTP · Post by **RTP** » 27 Jul 2019, 06:29

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/03/ ... aul-mason/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 27 Jul 2019, 10:34

k979aaa wrote:Perhaps the above poster should remind him/herself that the labour party was once a great institution till it was hijacked by Blair and Brown and co

Maybe, and perhaps we can all look forward to it being that great institution again when the present bunch of electoral no-hopers are gone.
Incidentally K979 etc try some of these...…..and some of these,,,,,,,,in your posts. It may help when trying to make any sense of what you've posted.

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 27 Jul 2019, 13:55

But as it now stands the last labour government that was was even half socialist was in 1974!

The problem with that statement is that you're using well worn international templates to make your own judgment on what is and isn't socialist. That one size fits all Marxist doctrine has been completely debunked several times over. Socialism must be allowed to evolve to fit a particular country's socio-economic demographic otherwise you end up trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and the people will continue to reject your policies.

It's just not socialist enough is a dead end statement, Blair and Brown were just Tories in disguise is completely missing the point, each individual country will only accept a version of socialism that fits its needs, Even Tito got that when he told Stalin to f**k off. The more you try to force a particular brand down the throats of the people the more right wing they'll vote. You might despair at their lack of imagination but you're still left facing Boris and Co.

Pragmatism should not be a dirty word on the left, you can't help anyone in perpetual opposition with only smugness and self righteousness for company.

k979aaa · Post by **k979aaa** » 27 Jul 2019, 14:36

In this country Labour was as in name a coalition of workers in unions that fought through the democratic system of the time to bring a better future for all workers. But political systems are used by people who know how to work the system for their own ends, If anyone thinks democracy is served by one vote in June 2016 and that we should do as instructed by people who used the media to work the system for their own ends. One can only say that the political landscape of this nation is at best described as chaotic and at worst destructive in it's aims of a stable nation state, As one person once said which nations will end within the next 100 years the UK was top!

mickeymacca · Post by **mickeymacca** » 27 Jul 2019, 15:52

Tman wrote:
26l34 wrote:Third in some meaningless elections.

Meaningless to you,only because Labour came third. I doubt you would be quite so dismissive had Labour done better.
Then again, they were far from "meaningless" anymore than the last set of local elections where Labour also did far worse than predicted against a hopeless Tory party in disarray.
A good barometer of how, despite your (and others) continuing blind banner-waving, Labour under Corbyn are going down the sh*tpipe very rapidly.

Your bitterness is embarrassing and worrying in equal measure. Just vote Labour if you’re not as spiteful as you are resentful, cheers
Rather a meaningless statement, but you're right, and I will vote Labour again just as soon as the party returns to some sort of electable reality and clears out the cringingly embarrassing vote-losers like Corbyn, MacDonnell and Abbott, and to a lesser degree Lady Nugee and Rebecca Wrong-Daily. Until that happy time I'll sit at home on polling day and ruefully reflect on how such political dead-beats made it to the top of this once-proud political force.

That's a salient point, the Labour front bench are lame. I think MacDonnell is pretty good actually apart from the odd faux pais. I feel sorry for Abbott she is not fit for front line politics anymore, she always looks exhausted and struggling mentally to cope, Barry Gardiner is not up to it, Thornberry is not great, ditto Watson and Starmer, I like Angela Rayner she's probably the best in the shad cab imo. Corbyn has peaked, the most honourable thing he could do now is hand over the baton, but it seems he has developed an ego so that's not gonna happen, and Boris is gonna beat him up at PMQs far too sharp for Corbyn......would like to see Burnham, Y Cooper, Benn, D Miliband just anyone you can take seriously....wake up Labour have got no chance in the next GE.....

mickeymacca · Post by **mickeymacca** » 27 Jul 2019, 16:05

'Pragmatism should not be a dirty word on the left, you can't help anyone in perpetual opposition with only smugness and self righteousness for company'

such a great observation, and unfortunately the incumbent leadership are not for compromise......

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 28 Jul 2019, 10:46

mickeymacca wrote:
Tman wrote:
26l34 wrote: I think MacDonnell is pretty good actually apart from the odd faux pais.

He can come across as an earnest and avuncular bank manager in open debates, but when his mask slips the true nature of MacDonnell is revealed.
Apart from his astounding financial naivety (for a possible future Chancellor) there's his record of praising the IRA, Esther McVeigh and how she should hang, "swimming through vomit" etc etc.
Rather more than the odd faux pas.
Bumbling Boris had him for ar*e paper in his opening speech in parliament, so much for "steely minded" MacDonnell.