CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[26l34]

I gave up when Israel was put in the same bracket as the apartheid in South Africa. Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but are Arabs banned from using Israels beaches. Do they have seperate public toilets. Do they have seperate park benches to sit on?

It’s certainly a contested claim though it’s a term the United Nations, for instance, as well as prominent South African scholars and theologians, such as Desmond Tutu and Farid Esack, have used to describe the situation. Much of the pushback comes from the fact that the West Bank and Gaza aren’t part of sovereign Israel, though through its occupation of land, the building of settlements, the creation of Israeli enclaves (leading to charges of a dual legal system), and more, we see the situation resembles many aspects of South Africa’s apartheid regime. And obviously the cases of brutality against the Palestinians by trigger happy Israeli soldiers are well documented. Personally I think it’s an accurate term.

[26l34]

I think the only one behaving in a partisan way here is yourself, your posts on Labour are dripping with hatred for Corbyn,

Well, you've got that right at least.
He's been the Tories best ally since he's "led" the Labour Party. "The worst Tory government in living memory and he can't even...etc etc …" all been said before, and still going unanswered.

Again, we’ve been over this - ‘he can’t even’ what? What can’t he/the Labour Party even do? They’ve had one shot at a general election, outperformed and exceeded all expectations, essentially making it impossible for Theresa May to govern. So now we are where we are - in a waiting game till 2022, or till Tory MPs vote to bring down their own government. I too am furious John McDonnell hasn’t invented a) a time machine or b) a system of Tory mind control.

No one’s glossing over anything re anti-Semitism. The numbers *I* quoted are actually higher than the ones in your link, which I think is quite dated. Either way they’re incredibly tiny, though obviously worrying - the party should obviously be aiming to reduce claims to zero though unfortunately contested claims will likely always be made.

[Woody Guthrie]

I don't think anyone should blind themselves to the fact that given the shambles the Tory party is in Labour should have a commanding lead in the polls, that's historically always been the case but not now. The question is what is wrong with what Labour is offering the voters?

Unless we can have an open debate about whether it's the message or the messenger without this defensive closing of ranks which unfortunately comes across as "cultish" we cannot move on. It's no longer enough to keep harping back to "centrists" or Blair as the reason for this malaise among the electorate. Labour seems to have shed both pro-Brexit and pro-remain voters...Why?, In Scotland the latest polls seem to suggest the SNP are increasing voter share again at the expense of Labour, Why? The Lib-Dems...just Why?

Polls are polls but with little else to go on you have to take notice and the latest polls suggest both Labour and the Tories have dropped from 40% at the last GE to just 25%, even giving a decent margin for error that's f***ing frightening, Why?

If there's a snap election which seems quite likely this may be a single issue election, I don't think Labour is prepared for that, they have a Brexit policy but nobody in the top team wants anything to do with it presumably because Jeremy Corbyn doesn't personally agree with it, it was foisted upon him.

[26l34]

I don’t think anyone’s closing ranks, I just think it’s important to push back against some of the b*llsh*t that’s spouted to attack the leadership. People pretending Labour’s riddled with anti-Semites are a big problem and challenging this stuff is important. Likewise a majority of the PLP are set against him, they’re not remotely interested in getting Labour into power, whether you call them centrists or Blairites or wreckers, that’s just the truth. A more united party would probably be more attractive to the public but the chances of that occurring with this set of MPs is close to nil. Absolutely though there are genuine failings - the ambiguity over Brexit was fine for a while but something more concrete and sellable is desperately needed now though I’m not convinced going full remain will be the huge vote winner people think. Scotland presents a unique set of problems, I don’t have a clue what the answers are up there, for as long as the SNP have Westminster to attack they look set fair to me, but living in England I don’t really know.

[postslippete]

The tariffs outlined in that article are very real though aren’t they and will apply in the event of us leaving without a deal. It’s extraordinary to me people are willing to see good businesses go to the wall (or, just as likely, relocate to elsewhere in the EU) just to satisfy their desire for independence.

Its not just about independence

I would prefer us to get some sort of a deal than leave with a 'no deal' Brexit. There are certain advantages to being in Europe in respect of trade and lower prices for goods and services and thats the key reason why we joined back in the 70s. However, the EU has developed into a monster and has gotten far too political for its own good. What Union is this that can impose regulation and laws that supersedes our own UK laws, for example? Sorry if I seem to be parroting the stuff that everybody knows, but we are one of the major players propping up the EU like Germany and France because we subsidise it heavily both in our membership fees and our imports. That being said it seems totally bonkers to me that we should agree to give them £39 billion up front without getting something really significant back in return. Surely even the most hardened Remainer can see that the EU would be a whole lot worst off without us? I mean, are Albania, Serbia or Kosovo going to join the EU when we leave and contribute what the UK currently does?

[mickeymacca]

The tariffs outlined in that article are very real though aren’t they and will apply in the event of us leaving without a deal. It’s extraordinary to me people are willing to see good businesses go to the wall (or, just as likely, relocate to elsewhere in the EU) just to satisfy their desire for independence.

Its not just about independence

I would prefer us to get some sort of a deal than leave with a 'no deal' Brexit. There are certain advantages to being in Europe in respect of trade and lower prices for goods and services and thats the key reason why we joined back in the 70s. However, the EU has developed into a monster and has gotten far too political for its own good. What Union is this that can impose regulation and laws that supersedes our own UK laws, for example? Sorry if I seem to be parroting the stuff that everybody knows, but we are one of the major players propping up the EU like Germany and France because we subsidise it heavily both in our membership fees and our imports. That being said it seems totally bonkers to me that we should agree to give them £39 billion up front without getting something really significant back in return. Surely even the most hardened Remainer can see that the EU would be a whole lot worst off without us? I mean, are Albania, Serbia or Kosovo going to join the EU when we leave and contribute what the UK currently does?

Pete I think you make some pragmatic and good points. I might be incorrect but you seem to have moved slightly from wanting a No Deal/ WTO rules Brexit to wanting a deal, kudos to you for having the flexibilty of mind to facilitate this shift. That's not meant to be patronising, I shifted my view on Corbyn when new information was available to inform me more accurately, and I think not being beholden to your ego is an asset and shows a certain strength of mind.

The £39 billion figure is not right, its £ 33 billion , that figure was relevant if we left on March 29th, it has been revised to £33 billion should we leave on Oct 31st, if not it will be revised again. But that is not your fault, even the PM mentioned that figure today in his opening statement and you would expect him to know, (he does know I'm sure).

My biggest concern is workers rights and deregulation. And the new neo-lib cabinet and the various companies they have lobbied for is basis enough to reinforce that view.

[Woody Guthrie]

That being said it seems totally bonkers to me that we should agree to give them £39 billion up front without getting something really significant back in return.

It's a legal obligation we signed up to in 2013, just like car finance you can't just say f**k it, I don't want the car anymore so I'm not going to pay the finance.

There are two obvious problems with not paying it,

1. There's nothing to stop the EU taking us to court for that huge amount of cash and humiliating us that way. Lawyers get rich, the bill gets higher yadda, yadda, yadda.

2. Just like bumping any finance agreement it screws your credit rating, who is going to agree to these wonderful new trade deals with a country that doesn't even pay what its due, certainly not anyone in Europe....

It's another empty threat, more embarrassing than anything else.
What's next, I'll get my big brother to batter you?

[RTP]

I'm not convinced that Labour shifting to full remain will work either. Not with Corbyn as leader anyway. Putting aside the antisemitism and cult issues, voters know that he's a brexiteer at heart so he's tarnished now with regards changing policy to full remain.

It's probably also too late in the day to launch another leadership challenge. It would more than likely go the same way as the last one anyway whereby he gets hammered with a no confidence vote, but wins through the membership backed up by the trade unions.Ed Miliband has a lot to answer for by changing the rules. Corbyn should have had the decency to stand down last time, but that's the way things are with him and he would do the same again.

I think most MP's that want Corbyn out are resigned to the fact that they are just going to have to ride things out until this labour shitstorm is over and the party can eventually start to rebuild again. Frustrating thing is that is how a lot of ex Labour voters who have previously voted Labour all their lives feel as well, me included.

[mickeymacca]

I'm not convinced that Labour shifting to full remain will work either. Not with Corbyn as leader anyway. Putting aside the antisemitism and cult issues, voters know that he's a brexiteer at heart so he's tarnished now with regards changing policy to full remain.

It's probably also too late in the day to launch another leadership challenge. It would more than likely go the same way as the last one anyway whereby he gets hammered with a no confidence vote, but wins through the membership backed up by the trade unions.Ed Miliband has a lot to answer for by changing the rules. Corbyn should have had the decency to stand down last time, but that's the way things are with him and he would do the same again.

I think most MP's that want Corbyn out are resigned to the fact that they are just going to have to ride things out until this labour shitstorm is over and the party can eventually start to rebuild again. Frustrating thing is that is how a lot of ex Labour voters who have previously voted Labour all their lives feel as well, me included.

I'm not fully au fait with the procedure of the LP leadership no-con vote, if he fails to receieve enough to survive does a leadership bidfollow the same format as the Cons, the final two going to the membership?

What are your thoughts on a Remain coalition fighting the next GE given its all going to be about Brexit?

[26l34]

See, it’s stuff like, ‘he’s a Brexiteer at heart’ that prompt defensiveness. He’s a left wing eurosceptic. When we think of Brexit and the Brexiteers we think of Johnson and Farage, ‘Singapore on the Thames’, ‘concerns about immigration’, all this stuff, none of which is relevant to Corbyn or the lexiteers. It’s just petty. Corbyn’s position on the EU reflects how a lot of Labour voters felt and still feel - remain, because Tories, but meh. There are plenty of parties that are happy to uncritically wave the EU flag but just because Labour's leadership has tried to meet leave and remain in the middle by respecting the referendum outcome, however disappointing it was, doesn’t make them ‘Brexiteers’.

Ed Miliband democratised the party and was cheered on in this act (about the only good thing the party did on his watch, as well as officially recognising Palestine) by the Labour right. Maybe you just don’t like democracy.

This is how the last leadership election worked:

“To stand, challengers needed to be nominated by at least 20% of the combined membership of the Parliamentary Labour Party and European Parliamentary Labour Party. As the incumbent, Jeremy Corbyn, by decision of the National Executive Committee, was automatically included on the ballot.

“The election was conducted under a pure "one member, one vote" (OMOV) system, as had been the case at the 2015 leadership election. Candidates were elected by members and registered and affiliated supporters, who all received a maximum of one vote and all votes were weighted equally.”

[RTP]

That's just it. He should never have been included in the ballot. It's a completely *ucked up system of voting that's akin to a dictatorship of a political party.

[RTP]

I find it so sad that this once great party has sunk so low.

[26l34]

He won an impressive mandate less than a year previously, it would’ve been a complete stitch up not to include him on the ballot. He won an even bigger mandate second time round - your idea of what constitutes a dictatorship is a bit whack.

[RTP]

The membership ballot that was wide open to be infultrated by tories and whacko's. Yeah that one.

[26l34]

Except it wasn’t infiltrated by anyone, was it? The party machine went into overdrive to expel people who wanted Corbyn to win, with many folk kicked out or barred from voting for the most spurious reasons. No trick they pulled stopped him because he was simply the most popular candidate with the party’s membership and grassroots supporters. If a load of Tories *did* pay 30 quid to infiltrate the party to keep him in his position how worthwhile an investment was that given a year later that 150 seat Tory majority he was meant to hand them turned to dust? Unless they were Johnson backers playing some incredible long game... given the increasingly bizarre state of your arguments I’d expect you think that sounds about right.