CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 23 Jul 2019, 19:00

postslippete wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49075764

Like this article, 'post-Brexit free trade nirvana'. We haven't even left yet!!

The tariffs outlined in that article are very real though aren’t they and will apply in the event of us leaving without a deal. It’s extraordinary to me people are willing to see good businesses go to the wall (or, just as likely, relocate to elsewhere in the EU) just to satisfy their desire for independence.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 24 Jul 2019, 09:33

And, I've heard all about the "quota hoppers" - the foreign fishermen who bought British boats and licences to gain access to the UK's fishing quota. Its the main reason why fishing towns like Grimsby and Fleetwood and many other coastal towns are on its knees and voted for Brexit. Never mind the fishermen raking in the cash, what you are left with are whole towns in decline because fishing also provided much local work for winch makers, trawler suppliers, net makers, engineers etc.

Absolutely, and how do the actions of certain skippers in selling their licences ever justify or vindicate the EU's action over national fishing rights and quotas?
They could act in this way precisely because of the EU's magnanimous bureaucracy.

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 24 Jul 2019, 12:38

RTP wrote:
Celgar wrote:Not that I particularly like JC or think he would be a good PM but it should be obvious to everyone that the party is just using any & every reason or excuse under the sun to try and remove him. The labour party is not anti-Semitic. They just disagree with the existence of the state of Israel which is separate to the Jewish faith & more to do with colonialism and how the middle east was divided up after WW II.
How is disagreeing with the existance of Israel not antisemitic?

Demanding Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state, even when this involves denying basic human rights to its non-Jewish population, is essentially a demand to accept that Israel has a right to maintain apartheid - that Palestinians do not have human rights. That’s absolutely unacceptable.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 24 Jul 2019, 13:12

Ah, the old "but look at Israel's actions and injustices" as some sort of excuse for British anti-Semitism in the current version of the labour Party.
Corbyn supporters' blind requoting of nonsensical reasoning which doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny.
Hang on, mustn't say too much as that's "weaponizing" those anti-Semitism claims, and that in itself is another weak rebuttal for those very claims.
Stalinistic in it's stark duplicitious simplicity.

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 24 Jul 2019, 16:19

That’s some good word soup there buddy.

We’re not talking about Corbyn, or racism directed at British Jews - we’re talking about human rights in Israel. Any state that exists by oppressing a group of people should be questioned - not sure how anyone who thinks of themselves as remotely progressive could disagree.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 24 Jul 2019, 17:28

26l34 wrote: We’re not talking about Corbyn, or racism directed at British Jews - we’re talking about human rights in Israel..

Not "we" but Corbyn supporters. The usual diversionary tactic to take the spotlight away from the scourge of anti-Semitism under Corbyn.
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned that other reliable standby about the problem of anti-Semitism being an invention of the Daily Mail and other hostile media.
Labour "progressive"? That particular label died a death when it became clear that the "oldest racism" had a significant following in today's version of the Labour Party under Corbyn. Truly shameful.

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 24 Jul 2019, 17:48

Any state that exists by oppressing a group of people should be questioned -

Syria?
Yemen?
Myanmar?
UAE?
North Korea?

The list is long, much longer than those but who genuinely questions their right to exist?
We question their government, their policies, their military but Israel seems to be a special case where the millions of innocent people who live there without oppressing anyone get to have the legitimacy of their entire country questioned?

I'm no fan of the Israeli government or it's ridiculous confrontational stance on everything but the vast majority of Israelis do not need hypocrits like us telling them their country shouldn't exist.

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 24 Jul 2019, 18:03

No one mentioned ordinary Israelis, when we talk about nations we’re nearly always referring to their governments - that’s why millions of ordinary North Koreans don’t deserve to die in a nuclear holocaust even though we might wish to remove their ruling family, for instance.

Unfortunately I think the two state option is increasingly looking dead. The question is, does Israel have a right to exist as a Jewish state, when that Jewishness is maintained by denying democratic and other rights to most of its non-Jewish population? Not sure how anyone who believes in human rights could have an issue with this point.

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 24 Jul 2019, 18:33

No one mentioned ordinary Israelis,

Apart from making them stateless (again).
You can't use language like " disagree with the existence of the Israeli state" without implicitly threatening the security of the "ordinary Israeli people".
I don't know how anyone who believes in human rights could argue with this....

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 24 Jul 2019, 20:29

No one wants to make Israelis stateless - rather, it’s about everyone living under Israel’s control having equal rights, which they currently don’t.

“the "oldest racism" [has] a significant following in today's version of Labour”

Except, it doesn’t. The numbers don’t support this claim. There are *some* anti-Semites in Labour, and also there have been weaknesses in Labour’s disciplinary processes (a problem dating back decades and involving all sorts of allegations of racist and physical abuse, sadly). But the evidence is quite clear - in February the party revealed it had received 673 allegations of anti-Semitism by members over the preceding ten months – that’s approximately 0.1 percent of the membership. A 2017 poll commissioned by the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism found Labour supporters were less likely to hold anti-Semitic views than Tory members or the public at large, and that anti-Semitism among supporters of Labour had gone down compared to 2015. There’s obviously work to do but your hyperbole and weaponisation isn’t helpful and no genuine anti-racist would stoop to such levels.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 24 Jul 2019, 21:31

Try this then-
https://antisemitism.uk/politics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe you ought to stop blindly banging the Corbyn drum and face reality.

26l34 · Post by **26l34** » 24 Jul 2019, 22:13

Interesting. The numbers are still incredibly tiny. And I’m not sure how relevant some of them are anyway - for instance, the first case involving the first party listed, the Tories, dates back to 2015 and appears to have been concluded in 2017. The third relating to the Tories involves Alan Duncan and dates back even further, to 2014. Fwiw I don’t see anything to disagree with in his remarks. Many of these cases are extremely old and whether some are even examples of antisemitism is debatable.

It’s hard to see how the quote at the top of the page, “Antisemitism is the organisation of politics against the Jews”, is reflected in any Labour policies or statements made by the leadership.

I think the only one behaving in a partisan way here is yourself, your posts on Labour are dripping with hatred for Corbyn, and I notice you never, ever engage with any issues of substance put to you, regardless of the topic at hand, whether you have anything interesting to say is impossible to determine because of it.

RTP · Post by **RTP** » 24 Jul 2019, 22:59

I gave up when Israel was put in the same bracket as the apartheid in South Africa. Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but are Arabs banned from using Israels beaches. Do they have seperate public toilets. Do they have seperate park benches to sit on?

RTP · Post by **RTP** » 24 Jul 2019, 23:06

What next?

Refuse to recognise Northern Ireland as a Country.

Hmm...

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 24 Jul 2019, 23:12

26l34 wrote:
I think the only one behaving in a partisan way here is yourself, your posts on Labour are dripping with hatred for Corbyn,

Well, you've got that right at least.
He's been the Tories best ally since he's "led" the Labour Party. "The worst Tory government in living memory and he can't even...etc etc …" all been said before, and still going unanswered.
Strange that reports of anti-Semitism (as in the link) are so easily glossed over and somehow the point returns to me and my posts. You and Jeremy Corbyn have similar methods of rebuttal.
Admit nothing, deny everything and move the debate on at all costs.
{BTW you did notice that complaints re anti-Semitism in the Labour Party were actually more than all the other parties combined, didn't you?}