CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[Woody Guthrie]

You haven't really answered the question.
We have watched this Tory party lurch from one crisis to another, any decent opposition would have destroyed this present government, torn it to shreds and left it in pieces., this government despite its obvious failings is so dismissive of the opposition that it has the front to put up a charlatan parody of an MP as its future leader safe in the knowledge that it faces no credible challenge from Labour. That lack of fear has enabled the Tory party to move onto a different level of crazy. That lack of fear is now and in the future, it isn't 10 years in the past.

You are happy with an increase in voter share.
It's time to stop blaming the past and start looking at the present.

Anybody who thinks that the present opposition is effective is delusional, how far do the Tories have to take us before that becomes obvious?, how crazy do they get to be? They've already raised the bar further than I can remember, further even than Thatcher did.

We will likely face another GE long before 2022, how many does Corbyn get to lose before it becomes his fault?

[26l34]

I mean this government *is* in pieces and the wheels began coming off the moment Theresa May badly underestimated Corbyn’s Labour and called a general election - an election which allowed Corbyn to start making up some of the massive amounts of ground previous leaderships had ceded to the right.

The current leadership’s been very effective at shifting much of the debate around the economy, public services, and so on. On Brexit it’s been harder but this thread sums up why - Corbyn’s either a fascist enabler, or a saboteur. The reality’s much different but we’ve a polarised electorate and I do think the party needs to firmly pick a side now, and own the consequences of that (personally I think the idea of a betrayed, leave voting working class abandoning the party for eternity is far fetched but also probably a risk worth taking to keep younger, more progressive voters onside).

Labour has some great policies and a fired up base of activists that, whatever their disagreements on Brexit, desperately want to overthrow this government and absolutely I think Corbyn should be given the chance to build on 2017. It’s a pity the majority of the party’s MPs don’t feel the same, fingers crossed we finally get mandatory re-selection soon.

[26l34]

“Anybody who thinks that the present opposition is effective is delusional, how far do the Tories have to take us before that becomes obvious?, how crazy do they get to be?”

If Corbyn was as useless as you say May would’ve won a bigger majority in 2017, and her Brexit deal would’ve probably passed. So by not being useless we’ve got Johnson, which is terrible as he’s clearly worse than her, but also the opportunity to still remain. Them’s the breaks.

[Tman]

If Corbyn was as useless as you say May would’ve won a bigger majority in 2017,

But Corbyn still didn't win then, and under his leadership Labour did badly in both the recent local elections and the elections for MEPs. How much more time do you allow this loser to have before admitting he's an electoral liability?
How much worse will the Tories be allowed to become before we finally get an effective opposition in this country?

[26l34]

Again, he didn’t win despite recording the biggest swing to Labour the party had seen since *1945*. Bigger even than Blair managed in ‘97. The party’s electoral prospects were absolutely rock bottom in 2015 after two dreadful defeats and there’s zero evidence a centrist leader would’ve done better than Corbyn then and, crucially, now.

The Tories are being allowed to be whatever they like by an electoral system that locks them into power till 2022. Just as Corbyn can’t actually press a big button marked STOP BREXIT to please tedious liberals, he can’t get Tory MPs to slit their own throats and trigger an election. These are just facts, sorry.

[RTP]

“Anybody who thinks that the present opposition is effective is delusional, how far do the Tories have to take us before that becomes obvious?, how crazy do they get to be?”

If Corbyn was as useless as you say May would’ve won a bigger majority in 2017, and her Brexit deal would’ve probably passed. So by not being useless we’ve got Johnson, which is terrible as he’s clearly worse than her, but also the opportunity to still remain. Them’s the breaks.

I dont get it. Earlier in this thread you were saying how you were worried about the possible shortage of drug supplies with a no brexit deal and now you are saying that we may well end up with Boris as PM, but "thems the breaks". This is the same Boris that wants to close down Parliament so that we have a no deal.

[Tman]

"

26l34"]. The party’s electoral prospects were absolutely rock bottom in 2015 after two dreadful defeats and there’s zero evidence a centrist leader would’ve done better than Corbyn then and, crucially, now.

Fair point, but then there's zero evidence that some other leader wouldn't have done better than Corbyn, but as someone ele has already said, it's time to move on from the "what ifs" and "could haves".
It's also apparent that Corbyn's zenith is well-past so yes, indeed it is "crucially now".
Labour has the same problem as the Tories in that all the "leaders in waiting" are as bad if not worse, than the current incumbent.

These are just facts, sorry.

Well, your personal interpretation of the so-called facts, anyway.

[26l34]

“Anybody who thinks that the present opposition is effective is delusional, how far do the Tories have to take us before that becomes obvious?, how crazy do they get to be?”

If Corbyn was as useless as you say May would’ve won a bigger majority in 2017, and her Brexit deal would’ve probably passed. So by not being useless we’ve got Johnson, which is terrible as he’s clearly worse than her, but also the opportunity to still remain. Them’s the breaks.

I dont get it. Earlier in this thread you were saying how you were worried about the possible shortage of drug supplies with a no brexit deal and now you are saying that we may well end up with Boris as PM, but "thems the breaks". This is the same Boris that wants to close down Parliament so that we have a no deal.

If Corbyn had been as useless as the script said he’d be we’d have probably had a fairly orderly Brexit under May. Instead by wiping out her majority her authority was badly undermined and she was left with no room in parliament to move one way or the other, ultimately paving the way for Johnson to take over.

So what should Labour have done here? Rolled over in 2017 to keep the lesser evil in power? Or rolled over and passed her deal when her party revolted? Neither option would’ve been providing ‘effective opposition’, surely? So, as I say, them’s the breaks - effective opposition has destroyed May but also led to PM Johnson, but also keeps all options (including remain) on the table.

[26l34]

“Well, your personal interpretation of the so-called facts, anyway.”

Well, if you can tell me how Corbyn forces an election before either a) 2022 or b) the Tories decide to call one because they figure it’s in their interests, I’m all ears. Otherwise folk going ‘we’ve had ten years of Tory rule but they’re still in power, HOW?!?!’ and blaming Corbyn just look daft.

[Tman]

Perhaps if they'd acted like a responsible mature potential government back then rather than a strange concoction of SJW's, students and the Islington Elite they'd have achieved a much bigger share of the vote than they actually did, and we wouldn't be looking at suffering Johnson for the foreseeable.
Don't keep saying how good Corbyn did, but instead think how much better Labour would have done against the Tories in disarray with an even half-decent leader.
That's reason enough to detest the little fraud that he is.

[26l34]

That’s a decent little diatribe but it doesn’t stand up to reality. For starters the Tories weren’t in “disarray” in 2017 - they started that campaign with a 20 point lead in the polls. And who is this half decent leader? How could they have possibly achieved a bigger swing than the left did, never mind the sort of swing that would’ve led to a Labour victory? Even the Corbyn-phobic New Statesman noted:

“After May 2015, Labour appeared so far from power that many supporters conceded the next election in advance. The party was 99 seats behind the Conservatives (331-232), it had been wiped out in Scotland and boundary changes loomed. Such was the scale of Labour’s defeat that to achieve a majority of one it required a swing of 8.75 per cent across the UK. Not only had the party lost seats, it had gone backwards in those it needed to win.”

2017 exceeded even the centrists’ expectations, and it’s given Labour a brilliant chance of regaining power at the next election. If you can explain how, say, Owen Smith or Yvette Cooper, would’ve done better, I’m all ears. But then I asked how they’d provide the sort of ‘effective’ opposition that’d bring down the government ahead of 2022 and you responded with a rant about SJWs, so I won’t hold my breath.

[RTP]

Labour has historically always been a broadchurch where left wing and centralists have come together to form governments. People of all races were accepted and welcomed with open arms. It's not like that anymore and anyone who ignores the facts that Jews are not welcome anymore by certain sectors within the party are ignorant.Going down the road of "if your face doesn't fit" and if you dont accept Jeremys way then you risk deselection and Labour will never form a government by doing this, they just form a cult. Tell me how is it democratic that an MP can be elected by the public, but get deselected without them?

A strong leader such as Hilary Benn or Yvette Cooper would have Labour polling above everbody else right now. If they had been leader when we had the referendum the would have argued the facts with passion for remaining rather than hiding away. Jeremy and Boris are just different cheeks from the same arse.

[Danelectro]

People do not flock to socialism during periods of chaos Dan, they seek out structure and rules and authoritarian government, wishing to bring down the EU and make political gain from the resultant chaos is a dangerous game for the left, history shows us that and Jeremy Corbyn should be very careful which steps he takes next.

Despite social unrest throughout Europe and the US, in fact all over the globe it is the right who are making the gains, Why is that Dan or is that just down to a mainstream media conspiracy?

1) Never said I was a Socialist.

2) MSM is corrupt.Anybody that says otherwise is a liar or a fool.

3) Where did you study history -I'd ask for your money back as the first sentence of your theory was debunked in a country called Greece just 5 years ago

4) The seeds of EU destruction/unrest are written into the Lisbon and Mastricht treaties I wasn't there at the time.

5) It took 500 years for the Roman Empire to collapse.

[Tman]

If you can explain how, say, Owen Smith or Yvette Cooper, would’ve done better, I’m all ears..

We're going around in circles. The two you mentioned would've done better simply because they weren't Corbyn.
Cooper and Smith wouldn't have had those two electoral dead-weights Abbott and MacDonnell as trusty lieutenants, wouldn't have had skeletons in the cupboard (IRA, Hamas and Hezbollah, praising Venzuela, Castro etc,) and most of all wouldn't be forever tainted by anti-Semitism.
I don't see that Corbyn has done "brilliantly", other than if you're Tory supporter and appreciate the service he's done in keeping the Tories in power for far longer than they ever deserved.

[26l34]

You think Owen Smith would’ve achieved a bigger swing to Labour than even Tony Blair managed in ‘97?

Fair play, that’s some good trolling.