CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[26l34]

The vote to leave literally overturns a previous vote to join, so why’s this referendum meant to be different. If in five years’ time polls show strong support for us rejoining are leavers saying ‘you’ll just have to wait 40 years, sorry’. It’s nuts.

Johnson and Gove looked devastated the day of the result, I don’t think either wanted to actually win, Baldrick’s bang on.

[clashcityrocker]

the Anglo Saxon traditional representative democracy ?

Weren't the Angles and the Saxons immigrants?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

the Anglo Saxon traditional representative democracy ?

Weren't the Angles and the Saxons immigrants?

Witans and Hundreds ? where the word of 12 people was overruled by 1. No thanks

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-17822919" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[postslippete]

But you cannot blame those who voted to leave its the MPs who are the ones that are responsible for the shambles and the 'mess' that we are

Yes you can ...because this shambles was predicted or did you honestly believe that a party riven by divisions over Europe for the best part of 40 years could suddenly coalesce around a sensible plan or were you one of those who believed that the EU would crumble in the face of the bulldog spirit?

A few home truths.
1. No deal Brexit is not a viable solution.
2. It was never meant to be.
3. It's a bargaining position.
4. It's a s**t bargaining position because everyone including the EU knows it's just a bargaining position.
5. Watch how quickly Boris folds this hand. (he's already rowing back faster than Steve Redgrave)

Aye, can you predict this weeks winning lottery numbers as well?? The only thing predictable about the result of the referendum was the fact that influential remainers, many of them politicians, didn't like the result and have done everything they can to reverse the decision. And its clear to me that those who live in a parallel universe of believing that remain is the only way are the only ones that can't see that. Or should I say....don't want to see it. See, if remain had won the majority vote, then even though I wouldn't like it, I would be more than prepared to accept the status quo, that the decision has been made, and we should just carry just like we had done before. Honestly.

But what really annoys me are those who are actively seeking to reverse the decision by one way or another because they don't agree with it using every excuse under the sun to try and stall or prevent it from happening. But then the decision to Brexit remains in the hands of Westminster and the majority of MPs clearly want us to remain. Just imagine how good it then feels for parliament to then tell all the little people that voted - "sorry your vote doesn't count".

[postslippete]

Are they representing their constituents or are they representing themselves?? So yes, ignoring the concerns of a large swathe of the population is undemocratic.

The pro-Brexit MPs who represent Remain constituencies:

It sort of qualifies the point I made about politicians - are they representing their constituents or representing themselves?? And as far as I recall apart from London and parts of the Midlands, the rest of England pretty much voted to leave.

[postslippete]

The vote to leave literally overturns a previous vote to join, so why’s this referendum meant to be different. If in five years’ time polls show strong support for us rejoining are leavers saying ‘you’ll just have to wait 40 years, sorry’. It’s nuts.

Johnson and Gove looked devastated the day of the result, I don’t think either wanted to actually win, Baldrick’s bang on.

I think once the debate on this thread has reached some of sort of conclusion I think most of us will be completely bored to death and we will all be somehow bummed into muddling along just as we are in the EU instead of being ambitious, bold and innovative by doing things our own way.

[Danelectro]

What are the countries not in the EU that are doing well (other than obvious super states like China and the US) and how would we best emulate them?

We had plenty of influence as members, we just didn’t always get our own way.

And what countries in the EU are doing well ?

A case could be made for Denmark but after that your struggling to find a country without significant discontent and social unrest.

Some will point to Germany as doing 'well'.Germany is certainly the dominant country in the EU thanks in part to the Eurozone which has strangled the southern economies and resulted in general strikes in Belguim and riots in France on the back of labour reforms implemented as a consequence of single currency membership.

Germany has benefitted but if you dig a bit further you find that wages have stagnated and living standards have fallen for the majority of German citizens while Billionaires in the export and finance sector have popped up.

Rock Hard place.

[26l34]

But what really annoys me are those who are actively seeking to reverse the decision by one way or another because they don't agree with it using every excuse under the sun to try and stall or prevent it from happening. But then the decision to Brexit remains in the hands of Westminster and the majority of MPs clearly want us to remain. Just imagine how good it then feels for parliament to then tell all the little people that voted - "sorry your vote doesn't count".

Sorry, still don’t get this argument. The only option for leaving put before parliament was May’s withdrawal agreement and leave supporting MPs rejected it in no uncertain terms. Why should folk who don’t believe in Brexit have got it over the line when the politicians who want Brexit rejected the only realistic option for us getting out by March?

I know loads of folk who voted remain that’d support a soft Brexit but we’re being asked to swallow an increasingly hard and potentially ruinous version of it, personally I’m not prepared to gamble with peoples’ jobs and homes and health (which is basically what even Johnson and Hunt admit they’d be doing with a no deal Brexit) and I’m glad most MPs have the sense to not want to do that either.

[26l34]

What are the countries not in the EU that are doing well (other than obvious super states like China and the US) and how would we best emulate them?

We had plenty of influence as members, we just didn’t always get our own way.

And what countries in the EU are doing well ?

It’s a true enough observation but not really relevant here - remainers aren’t saying, look at European country X, let’s emulate them. The argument is, we enjoy frictionless trade with our nearest neighbours, but mercifully aren’t in the eurozone, or Schengen, and collectively as a continent can negotiate trade deals with both the world’s most powerful and emerging nations on a footing not available to us as an individual country. We’re going to junk that for what? What’s the model? Canada? Norway? Something new and unique? How do we get to this model? What’s the political process and the economic implications? The status quo’s far from perfect but it is what it is - leavers are the guys arguing for change, yet they refuse to put any meat on the bones, then have the nerve to say it’s folk pointing at a bag of bones and going, it’s just a crappy bag of bones, that are somehow wrong.

[Tman]

So you would advocate living in a bad or failing marriage, because it's somehow better than the alternative of a nasty costly divorce?
I rather doubt that.

[26l34]

Not all failing marriages end in a messy divorce, many can be saved, and the eurozone countries will still be tied to a duff currency if we leave, only now we’ll be trading with them on worse terms and we’ll have presented them with the opportunity to boost their economies by poaching UK based businesses that rely on single market membership. Likewise we’ll still be stuck with a right wing government implementing a strategy of fiscal consolidation (aka austerity), a policy they’ve pursued completely happily and without any pressure to do so from the EU. The neoliberal framework that’s been implemented across the EU with dire results for working class people was enthusiastically road tested in the UK so if the marriage is screwed it’s probably because we keep coming home drunk every night.

[Tman]

Likewise we’ll still be stuck with a right wing government implementing a strategy of fiscal consolidation (aka austerity), .

Things will be better (or different) when that nice Mr Corbyn gets into power then?

[Woody Guthrie]

the Anglo Saxon traditional representative democracy ?

Weren't the Angles and the Saxons immigrants?

It's an interesting use of language even if the idea is ridiculous.
During the Anglo-Saxon period (450AD- 1066AD) we were an absolute Monarchy, probably about as far away from democracy as you could possibly get so what an "Anglo Saxon traditional representative democracy" actually would look like is anyone's guess. Maybe he means another word.

Anywhoo I'm neither Angle nor Saxon, I think my family came over from France to fight for the young pretender and never left...they were basically overstayers by a few hundred years. Why they stayed is a mystery to me.

[Woody Guthrie]

So you would advocate living in a bad or failing marriage, because it's somehow better than the alternative of a nasty costly divorce?
I rather doubt that.

You do love an analogy.
Think of the kids.

[26l34]

Likewise we’ll still be stuck with a right wing government implementing a strategy of fiscal consolidation (aka austerity), .

Things will be better (or different) when that nice Mr Corbyn gets into power then?

I’d like to see social democracy tried in this country and I don’t see anyone else offering it, week after week in this country jobs are being lost with employers citing Brexit, so I can’t see a Corbyn government being a riskier proposition.