CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[Woody Guthrie]

willing to overturn democratic precedence

That doesn't even make sense.
You can't rank democracy just because you like this particular snapshot. Overturning a democratic decision with another democratic decision happens all the time, if it's a dangerous road it's one we know very well.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Problem with your point NWPostie is that you have lumped all remainers into one position.

Yet there are remainers who accept the result, there are ones who believe there is enough evidence that enough Leavers have changed their minds, or that enough leavers do NOT want a No Deal, and yes there are some that truly and honestly believe that Brexit is the worst thing possible to happen to this country.
Are they less patriotic in fighting for what they think is best for the UK, just because they have an opposite opinion to you?

Yes, the majority voted to leave, but we don't know how the majority of them want to leave.

Calling an opposing opinion, honestly held, petulant - that just drives the division.

But I do agree with you ignoring the concerns of a large swathe of the population IS undemocratic.

[Tman]

willing to overturn democratic precedence

. Overturning a democratic decision with another democratic decision happens all the time, if it's a dangerous road it's one we know very well.

Such as?

[postslippete]

A second referendum will not end it, it would be more divisive, anti democratic with political repercussions.

The "shambles" has been caused by Remainers sabotaging the process in order to stop Brexit nothing to do with "protecting democracy"

Well said

I don't blame the public who voted to remain anymore than those who voted to leave. But its the MPs in parliament that have done everything they can to stop/prevent Brexit from happening. Yes, there are MPs that don't agree with the deals that were put forward to them but when you've got an MP of a town that represents constituents that voted to leave with over 75%, but they themselves don't agree with leaving, you have to ask the question - Are they representing their constituents or are they representing themselves?? So yes, ignoring the concerns of a large swathe of the population is undemocratic.

But you cannot blame those who voted to leave its the MPs who are the ones that are responsible for the shambles and the 'mess' that we are in.

[postslippete]

Problem with your point NWPostie is that you have lumped all remainers into one position.

Yet there are remainers who accept the result, there are ones who believe there is enough evidence that enough Leavers have changed their minds, or that enough leavers do NOT want a No Deal, and yes there are some that truly and honestly believe that Brexit is the worst thing possible to happen to this country.
Are they less patriotic in fighting for what they think is best for the UK, just because they have an opposite opinion to you?

Yes, the majority voted to leave, but we don't know how the majority of them want to leave.

Calling an opposing opinion, honestly held, petulant - that just drives the division.

But I do agree with you ignoring the concerns of a large swathe of the population IS undemocratic.

I think the sort of talk on a hard or soft Brexit is what keeps parliament going round in circles. And I believe that our only option that we really have (which the remain MPs don't want for their own reasons) is a No Deal Brexit. Otherwise whats the alternative?? Give the public another vote with an essay of options on it that is more than a straightforward in or out?

[Woody Guthrie]

Are they representing their constituents or are they representing themselves?? So yes, ignoring the concerns of a large swathe of the population is undemocratic.

The pro-Brexit MPs who represent Remain constituencies:

Vauxhall Remain vote: 77.6%
MP: Kate Hoey (Labour) backed Leave

Kensington Remain vote: 68.8%
MP: Victoria Borwick (Conservative) backed Leave

Birmingham Hall Green Remain vote: 66.4%
MP: Roger Godsiff (Labour) backed Leave

Leyton and Wanstead Remain vote: 65.2%
MP: John Cryer (Labour) backed Leave

St Albans Remain vote: 62.2%
MP: Anne Main (Conservative) backed Leave

Enfield Southgate Remain vote: 62.1%
MP: David Burrowes (Conservative) backed Leave

Altrincham and Sale West Remain vote: 61.4%
MP: Graham Brady (Conservative) backed Leave

Hitchin and HarpendenvRemain vote: 60.2%
MP: Peter Lilley (Conservative) backed Leave

Chipping Barnet Remain vote: 58.9%
MP: Theresa Villiers (Conservative) backed Leave

Fermanagh and South Tyrone Remain vote: 58.6%
MP: Tom Elliott (Ulster Unionist Party) backed Leave

Esher and WaltonvRemain vote: 58.4%
MP: Dominic Raab (Conservative) backed Leave

Hendon Remain vote: 58.4%
MP: Matthew Offord (Conservative) backed Leave

WokinghamcRemain vote: 57.3%
MP: John Redwood (Conservative) backed Leave

Woking Remain vote: 55.7%
MP: Jonathan Lord (Conservative) backed Leave

York Outer Remain vote: 55.3%
MP: Julian Sturdy (Conservative) backed Leave

Chesham and Amersham Remain vote: 55%
MP: Cheryl Gillan (Conservative) backed Leave

North East Hampshire Remain vote: 53.8%
MP: Ranil Jayawardena (Conservative) backed Leave

Witney Remain vote: 53.7%
MP: Robert Courts (Conservative) backed Leave

Former Prime Minister David Cameron was the MP at the time of EU referendum. He backed Remain.

Windsor Remain vote: 53.3%
MP: Adam Afriyie (Conservative) backed Leave

Lewes Remain vote: 52.9%
MP: Maria Caulfield (Conservative) backed Leave

Birmingham Edgbaston Remain vote: 52.7%
MP: Gisela Stuart (Labour) backed Leave

She is standing down ahead of the election.

Harrow East Remain vote: 52.5%
MP: Bob Blackman (Conservative) backed Leave

North Somerset Remain vote: 52.4%
MP: Liam Fox (Conservative) backed Leave

Epsom and Ewell Remain vote: 52.2%
MP: Chris Grayling (Conservative) backed Leave

Reigate Remain vote: 52%
MP: Crispin Blunt (Conservative) backed Leave

The Cotswolds Remain vote: 52.1%
MP: Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative) backed Leave

East Londonderry Remain vote: 52%
MP: Gregory Campbell (Democratic Unionist Party) backed Leave



Haltemprice and Howden Remain vote: 51.9%
MP: David Davies (Conservative) backed Leave

Beckenham Remain vote: 51.6%
MP: Bob Stewart (Conservative) backed Leave

Wycombe Remain vote: 51.5%
MP: Steve Baker (Conservative) backed Leave

Pudsey Remain vote: 51.4%
MP: Stuart Andrew (Conservative) backed Leave

Filton and Bradley Stoke Remain vote: 51.2%
MP: Jack Lopresti (Conservative) backed Leave

Belfast North Remain vote: 50.4%
MP: Nigel Dodds (Democratic Unionist Party) backed Leave

Chingford and Woodford Green Remain vote: 50.1%
MP: Iain Duncan Smith (Conservative) backed Leave

[Woody Guthrie]

But you cannot blame those who voted to leave its the MPs who are the ones that are responsible for the shambles and the 'mess' that we are

Yes you can ...because this shambles was predicted or did you honestly believe that a party riven by divisions over Europe for the best part of 40 years could suddenly coalesce around a sensible plan or were you one of those who believed that the EU would crumble in the face of the bulldog spirit?

A few home truths.
1. No deal Brexit is not a viable solution.
2. It was never meant to be.
3. It's a bargaining position.
4. It's a s**t bargaining position because everyone including the EU knows it's just a bargaining position.
5. Watch how quickly Boris folds this hand. (he's already rowing back faster than Steve Redgrave)

[Woody Guthrie]

willing to overturn democratic precedence

. Overturning a democratic decision with another democratic decision happens all the time, if it's a dangerous road it's one we know very well.

Such as?

Every single election since the beginning of time.

That's kind of how democracy works, you ask the peeps what they want and then a few years later just in case they've changed their mind ...you ask 'em again....and again...and again etc.

The only real alternative to that is a dictatorship, tin pot or otherwise.

[26l34]

Great being a leaver isn’t it, you don’t need the first clue how to make Brexit happen, you just expect MPs who see Brexit for what is - economic self sabotage underpinned by petty xenophobia - to do it for you, lol.

For what it’s worth I could’ve been won round to the idea of Brexit and the Tory government had ample opportunities to build a consensus for what it should be - in the immediate aftermath; after May binned her majority; and even in the run up to the vote on the withdrawal agreement. They actively chose to do the opposite, so apologies if folk like myself don’t feel the need to help turn fantasy into reality now.

[Tman]

Every single election since the beginning of time.
That's kind of how democracy works, you ask the peeps what they want and then a few years later just in case they've changed their mind ...you ask 'em again....and again...and again etc.

So you're really trying to equate the electoral process and fixed term parliaments with a one-off (or so they said at the time) referendum?
Have you noticed that one is called a "general election" and the other was a "referendum"?
Typical of why some people get so exercised over the Brexit referendum; logic gets twisted in attempts to argue why the UK should (or shouldn't) leave the EU.

[Woody Guthrie]

So you're really trying to equate the electoral process and fixed term parliaments with a one-off (or so they said at the time) referendum?

No.
I said that democratic decisions were overturned by subsequent democratic decisions all the time. It's a road well travelled from the most minor council election to a general election. One of the fundamental principles of a democracy is that the people are not locked into a decision made in a specific point in time. As I've pointed out that's the stuff of dictatorships.

My personal feeling for what it's worth is that referenda are a poor substitute for real democracy, rather than have a second referendum I'd rather see the Labour party find some courage, campaign as the party of remain/revoke in the inevitable election that's coming and if they win they tear up article 50, no need for a second referendum if revoke is clearly written into you're manifesto.

However with JC in charge there's more chance of a unicorn turning up on my front lawn on October 31st.

[NWpostie]

A few home truths.
1. No deal Brexit is not a viable solution.
2. It was never meant to be.
3. It's a bargaining position.
4. It's a s**t bargaining position because everyone including the EU knows it's just a bargaining position.
5. Watch how quickly Boris folds this hand. (he's already rowing back faster than Steve Redgrave)

How do you know ? Are you a soothsayer ? Did you have a reliable crystal ball ?

Bearing in mind many countries are not in the EU and doing quite well, global shipping had increased a great deal since 1973, EU trade has been declining each year, the EU recently elected 3 very dodgy characters one a corrupt friend of Macron, 2 convicted fraudsters to lead the EU with the stated aim of creating an unitary federal state of Europe.

So. Pray tell me why its a bad deal when we have zero influence in Europe, corrupt, anti democratic as none of the leaders were elected, Europarliament is a rubber stamping set up, Eurozone is struggling, I could go on ........

So why is it bad to leave an organisation that follows a central European Napoleanic/Thurigian political tradition as opposed to the Anglo Saxon traditional representative democracy ?

[26l34]

What are the countries not in the EU that are doing well (other than obvious super states like China and the US) and how would we best emulate them?

We had plenty of influence as members, we just didn’t always get our own way.

[baldrick]

The "shambles" has been caused by Remainers sabotaging the process in order to stop Brexit

The shambles has been caused by the people who argued for Leave, not really believing it would be carried and so not having a plan for how it could be implemented. And three years later they still don't.

Rubbish.
Why campaign for leave without believing in it ?

I didn't say that the Leave campaigners didn't believe in leaving. The right of the Conservative Party has been opposed to the EEC then EU since the UK joined. I said they didn't really believe it would be carried, and didn't have a plan for how it would be done.
And why campaign for it? Well in Boris Johnson's case it was to position himself as the Brexit candidate in the next Conservative leadership contest.

[Tman]

No.
I said that democratic decisions were overturned by subsequent democratic decisions all the time.

When trying to make that point you're ignoring the difference between elections and referenda. You know they're not the same thing at all.

However with JC in charge there's more chance of a unicorn turning up on my front lawn on October 31st.

Is he in charge? I thought that little pretence was shattered a while back.