Taking breaks and coming in on time

[Woody Guthrie]

your description of the first groups choice is directly responsible for the intimidation you describe and that is inflicted on those who fall into the second type/group.

There's none so blind as those that refuse to see.

1. Some members of staff will always finish before other members of staff regardless of whether they start early or not. Using "doing the job properly" to arbitrarily decide who's a good guy and who isn't is such a flawed idea it borders on the ridiculous.

Nobody and I mean nobody does the job properly...not entirely properly. To set up this false construct and then call anyone who doesn't adhere to it an idiot is bullying in itself, it's practically fascistic.

2. Management should never be allowed to compare the performance of one member of staff against another and use this to bully and intimidate. That's it, that's what reps and decent union members should be concentrating on not taking pious positions based on their own idea of what doing the job properly actually means and then blaming others for the fact that they can't stand up for their colleagues.

When you come on here and bang on about how people starting early or skipping their breaks is costing jobs or stopping part-timers getting full-time jobs it creates division and it's based on a complete misunderstanding ( I'm being kind ) of how a resource plan works.

As has been said many times before you cannot take hours out of an office based on people starting early, people skipping breaks or even people finishing early.

It has to be based on work ( at present in the form of items/ gwh and hours available. What actually costs jobs and full-time contracts in delivery is a) a structural decline in indoor workload and b) the overtime culture and Royal Mail's reluctance to convert it to contracted hours.

[tommyrep]

your description of the first groups choice is directly responsible for the intimidation you describe and that is inflicted on those who fall into the second type/group.

There's none so blind as those that refuse to see.

1. Some members of staff will always finish before other members of staff regardless of whether they start early or not. Using "doing the job properly" to arbitrarily decide who's a good guy and who isn't is such a flawed idea it borders on the ridiculous.

Nobody and I mean nobody does the job properly...not entirely properly. To set up this false construct and then call anyone who doesn't adhere to it an idiot is bullying in itself, it's practically fascistic.

2. Management should never be allowed to compare the performance of one member of staff against another and use this to bully and intimidate. That's it, that's what reps and decent union members should be concentrating on not taking pious positions based on their own idea of what doing the job properly actually means and then blaming others for the fact that they can't stand up for their colleagues.

When you come on here and bang on about how people starting early or skipping their breaks is costing jobs or stopping part-timers getting full-time jobs it creates division and it's based on a complete misunderstanding ( I'm being kind ) of how a resource plan works.

As has been said many times before you cannot take hours out of an office based on people starting early, people skipping breaks or even people finishing early.

It has to be based on work ( at present in the form of items/ gwh and hours available. What actually costs jobs and full-time contracts in delivery is a) a structural decline in indoor workload and b) the overtime culture and Royal Mail's reluctance to convert it to contracted hours.

Had this discussion with you before. And this thread is not about hours being removed, you are the one convinced early starters are not the motivator in an office losing hours and you are wrong!
You need to take the blinkers off. Just because you run a tight ship, that is not the “norm” by any means in other DOs.
On this occasion you have shot yourself in the foot by the creation of two “types” and talking about compassion and solidarity? I have said and I will repeat for your benefit, I could not care less if people go in early and miss breaks to finish early. What I do care about is when the effect of their actions are used as a tool by unscrupulous managers against the type 2s you refer too. You even used the terms “intimidation and bullying”
Then, you go on too spout hypocritically that people should have and show compassion and solidarity to fellow colleagues?
In this instance your are trying to wear two hats, your comments on the blind refusing to see! well for all your talk of Reps doing their jobs will protect hours etc is not TYPICAL to your gaff. If you not realise or accept that it DOES happen elsewhere, it’s you that needs the services of a guide dog. Many other posters, detailing the effects like the types twos you yourself have mentioned, are not a rarity in other DOs far from it. On this matter you are wrong to think it is not the reality others experience, those much less fortunate than your members.
As I said, I’m not going to regurgitate old differences. You know what happens in other DOs regardless of what happens in your DO, people do get intimidated by comparison to others and that is a simple fact - not fiction!

[mlw]

personally if your partner has been in to report you to the dom about this, i'd think you should also put in a grievance against him too, or at least create a paper trail if the situation escalates, you may not be very popular but you cannot be bullied by your partner, this is far worse than from a manager to me,
your union rep must back you in this case and the other person get moved off the duty if not happy,
our area rep is constantly banging on about taking our breaks, but still only around 12 of us out of 70 do, some say they have 1 outdoor though,

i think it won't be long before we lose our paid break, most would sooner take lapsing anyway
btw, you say there is only 1 other who takes their break? do they get any grief off co-workers and moved around?

No the other guy works on own on hct and Dom wontpay overttime until official finish time. So he has break in office and claims most days yet his floater never claims but just works through breaks! You couldn’t make this place up!

[Woody Guthrie]

So he has break in office and claims most days yet his floater never claims but just works through breaks

What time does the floater finish?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

[
What I find harder to understand is your attack on some union members who do not have compassion or understand the virtues of solidarity! Which type is that directed at? The first or the second?

In my opinion the third group.

I try to change the minds and opinions of both groups and by persuasion and example. The virtue of solidarity is to get everyone working together, not pointing out their differences. I think if anyone does the job by the book as they see it, and then looks down on others, they aren't really interested in Solidarity.

For me, solidarity is a world view where you include those that disagree with you, and act against you and are different you. It's not just for those that are the same as you and agree with you.

[tommyrep]

[
What I find harder to understand is your attack on some union members who do not have compassion or understand the virtues of solidarity! Which type is that directed at? The first or the second?

In my opinion the third group.

I try to change the minds and opinions of both groups and by persuasion and example. The virtue of solidarity is to get everyone working together, not pointing out their differences. I think if anyone does the job by the book as they see it, and then looks down on others, they aren't really interested in Solidarity.

For me, solidarity is a world view where you include those that disagree with you, and act against you and are different you. It's not just for those that are the same as you and agree with you.

When the actions of some has a detrimental effect on others and persuasion has failed miserably, I agree with you that the EXAMPLE factor is paramount. It is not only the case that those who do the job by the book are simply moaning and looking down on others, it’s the “managers” who use it effectively AGAINST them in a comparison/example argument.
On solidarity. I think Woodys unit does apparently enjoy a level of solidarity between members that others do not have.
Likewise is the case with number ones gaff!
Is Solidarity not about sticking together to get fairness for ALL? Or do you just turn a blind eye is support off a select few?
Life is not so complicated in reality, I would always strive for fairness. If individuals disagree with my view that when people are being treated unfairly that is wrong, when being compared to the actions of others, then they DO need some compassion and the benefits that solidarity provides. Surely that cannot be fundamentally WRONG! It is not a simple question of your view that, “ It is not just for those that are the same as you and agree with you”
If it wrong it can and never will be RIGHT.
Your creation of a third groups view is in theory the best way to achieve unit harmony AND when that works to the benefit of all staff/members rather than in the favour of managers eager to exploit and abuse a minority of people in the DO, who are left to endure resulting intimidation with no support - or interest, from others.
I also believe it is a Reps duty to lead by example! To sit back and know that people are not doing the job as the Union would prefer- in the drive to protect jobs- with a shrug of the shoulders while saying “no one does the job properly anyway!” is not a credible Union Reps stance and acts only to appease those who decide to operate in different manner, that attitude only condones and encourages a bullying culture.

[Celgar]

Basically I e had enough of coming in 15 mins early and not taking any break so this week I’m having breaks and coming in on time! I’ve claimed 1-5 hours protracted much to my manager annoyance and partner, who has had a right moan at me! He thinks I’m unreasonable and being obstructionable but surely if everyone did this we would not have to do lapsing and part timers would get more hours?my Dom has said I should not take breaks as holding partner up and if I. Continue will put me on floating duty, problem is I like current walk so can be just change me as I been on this round for over a year? I actually like taking breaks and not rushing around like every one else at our office but it seems I fighting a losing battle, surely he can’t force me if I done nothing wrong?

The DOM should not be telling or encouraging you to come in early unpaid before duty time or not to take your breaks - in fact the reverse. I have never had a DOM or a union rep tell me to do that. They should be telling the other postie to have the break with you at an agreeable time between yourselves or when everyone else takes it if the office does it collectively. New DOMs that we have had in our DO occasionally are usually very vociferous about breaks being taken before Postie's go out on delivery. They sometimes go off on one if they notice the breaks are not being taken.
The standard line is that lapsing occurs if less than the predicted amount of mail arrives through the system. This is not to say that higher management or finance directors will not go poking around PDA data and spot a number of posties finishing early on a regular basis. It happened in our DO and a higher up manager defended us but if another office didn't have that defence then they could end up losing hours.

[rambo1]

Why would you not want paying for doing nothing but relaxing and eating a sandwich? There aren't half some thick posties about.

The vast majority of those who skip their breaks do so to finish early, it happens in every industry where there is any kind of flexibility at the end of your contracted hours. My mother was an NHS nurse for 40 years and she often worked through her break if it was manic and was allowed off shift early to compensate.

In order to fix a problem you have to first understand the root cause of the problem and calling colleagues thick or stupid and failing to get your head around the reasons behind the issue is unhelpful at best.

There are two kinds of meal break skipper..

The first and by far the majority are simply trying to finish early, we still have a job and finish culture and members would like to get the work done as quickly as possible, that's human nature, is almost impossible to change and the business exploits that, if they exploit it too much it tends to put a stop to it until they roll back their expectations.

What staff and the union should be focused on is the second type, why some members start early, don't take their breaks and still struggle to complete, In a situation like that there is almost always some kind of intimidation going on and rather than calling them stupid or idiots we should be talking to them about the issues that are driving this behaviour and helping to put a stop to the bullying.

There are too many on here who call themselves union members but don't understand the first thing about compassion or solidarity.

Look , people who come in early, rush around , don't take a break, just to finish 30 mins early, which they shouldn't be allowed to do now anyway, are putting the pressure on the people who want to do the job right. It's the latter that get bullied by management when it comes to claiming docket or refusing to take lapsing coz the former had screwed the job up.
As for calling some thick, well, people come in 30 mins early and don't take breaks so they can do an extra 20 mins lapsing and finish maybe 30 mins early. To my mind, you gotta be pretty thick to want to make work for yourself.

[steve1873]

Basically I e had enough of coming in 15 mins early and not taking any break so this week I’m having breaks and coming in on time! I’ve claimed 1-5 hours protracted much to my manager annoyance and partner, who has had a right moan at me! He thinks I’m unreasonable and being obstructionable but surely if everyone did this we would not have to do lapsing and part timers would get more hours?my Dom has said I should not take breaks as holding partner up and if I. Continue will put me on floating duty, problem is I like current walk so can be just change me as I been on this round for over a year? I actually like taking breaks and not rushing around like every one else at our office but it seems I fighting a losing battle, surely he can’t force me if I done nothing wrong?

Diarise the managers threats and use the grievance procedure. You are entitled to a) start on your time and b) take your allowed meal relief.

Doing either or both should not be in any way, shape or form punishable which is what is being threatened.

[matthew68]

So he has break in office and claims most days yet his floater never claims but just works through breaks

What time does the floater finish?

always about 1 hour before as as they charge around and done take breaks even had manager comparing them to us and how quicker they are !

[matthew68]

Basically I e had enough of coming in 15 mins early and not taking any break so this week I’m having breaks and coming in on time! I’ve claimed 1-5 hours protracted much to my manager annoyance and partner, who has had a right moan at me! He thinks I’m unreasonable and being obstructionable but surely if everyone did this we would not have to do lapsing and part timers would get more hours?my Dom has said I should not take breaks as holding partner up and if I. Continue will put me on floating duty, problem is I like current walk so can be just change me as I been on this round for over a year? I actually like taking breaks and not rushing around like every one else at our office but it seems I fighting a losing battle, surely he can’t force me if I done nothing wrong?

Diarise the managers threats and use the grievance procedure. You are entitled to a) start on your time and b) take your allowed meal relief.

Doing either or both should not be in any way, shape or form punishable which is what is being threatened.

He’s now saying we’re too slow and shouldn’t be claiming ot so I said ok take lapsing off, he ain’t happy with me!

[steve1873]

Basically I e had enough of coming in 15 mins early and not taking any break so this week I’m having breaks and coming in on time! I’ve claimed 1-5 hours protracted much to my manager annoyance and partner, who has had a right moan at me! He thinks I’m unreasonable and being obstructionable but surely if everyone did this we would not have to do lapsing and part timers would get more hours?my Dom has said I should not take breaks as holding partner up and if I. Continue will put me on floating duty, problem is I like current walk so can be just change me as I been on this round for over a year? I actually like taking breaks and not rushing around like every one else at our office but it seems I fighting a losing battle, surely he can’t force me if I done nothing wrong?

Diarise the managers threats and use the grievance procedure. You are entitled to a) start on your time and b) take your allowed meal relief.

Doing either or both should not be in any way, shape or form punishable which is what is being threatened.

He’s now saying we’re too slow and shouldn’t be claiming ot so I said ok take lapsing off, he ain’t happy with me!

Make diary notes of EVERY conversation pertaining to this subject with manager, regardless of how "informal" the chat is. Actually make a point of letting him or her see you write down what is being discussed. Also try have a witness present during all conversations. He is attempting to bully you and intimidate you in to cutting corners, skipping meal relief etc.

It actually doesn't sound like a grievance issue, but rather a bullying and harassment case which is why I am imploring you to have dates and times of discussions as well as details of all discussions, as this will work in your favour when filling out an HR1 form.

Good luck.

[Postie45]

He’s now saying we’re too slow and shouldn’t be claiming ot so I said ok take lapsing off, he ain’t happy with me!

have you got your rep involved ?

[Kernowbabe]

I tend to mention to the new starters that if they finish on time by not taking breaks, that's 40minutes pay (i.e. the overtime) that isn't getting paid into their pension. Sometimes the penny drops.

[rambo1]

I tend to mention to the new starters that if they finish on time by not taking breaks, that's 40minutes pay (i.e. the overtime) that isn't getting paid into their pension. Sometimes the penny drops.

Pension doesn't get paid from any overtime. It's only your basic contract. Look on your payslip at pens contribution, it should be the same every week irrespective of overtime or not.