CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[baldrick]

the fact that Canada regularly free trade and got rid of tariffs - we could do the same?

It took Canada seven years to get a tariff free trade deal with the EU. Five years of negotiations and two years for the EU and the individual EU member countries to ratify the deal.
75% of Canada's trade is with it's neighbours (US and Mexico) in the North American Free Trade Association, mainly with the US.

The UK can't just declare it's getting rid of tariffs and free trade with any country it wants to, the country we want to trade with has to agree too. That can take years of negotiations, and many of the countries we would want to agree deals with are in trading blocs with their neighbours which will probably prohibit separate free trade deals with countries which aren't a part of thar trading bloc.

[clashcityrocker]

Baldrick - the vacuous statements of the far right don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

[mickeymacca]

And furthermore in the absence of any trade deals, and operating on purely WTO rules we will be under the behest of the 'most favoured nation' rules regarding the setting of tariffs, although we can always have a referendum to leave the WTO I suppose............

Also how will we control the Northern Ireland border, put up a physical border and renege on a peace treaty, or leave it as it is (which will be against WTO rules) and have a border anyone from the EU can just stroll over, unchecked.

There is a reason no other countries in the world operate on solely WTO rules and that is because it is not in any countries economic interest to do so.

And just leaving without keeping to the T and C's of our membership (paying our dues) of the EU is hardly a good position to be winning the trust of other countries we wish to be striking deals with.

I think you are on the turn Postslip

[k979aaa]

Well it's probably the only thing the CWU are standing firm on we all have a view on BREXIT and a second referendum but the fact is the whole premise of any referendum is to vote on the facts that were presented at the time and the vote was to leave. But during the course of time the facts have been proven to be manipulated at the time of the vote for the needs of certain groups in the Conservative party hell bent on leaving the EU that they lied to the whole nation. Whilst it may be true at the time we as a nation voted to leave the EU we cannot ignore that we now know all the facts that were at the time no one knew or people told lie's about but now we have established the facts and on that basis a second vote would either confirm BREXIT or refuse it based on the facts now present. I believe that we should have this vote as this is the single most important issue we all face we could if we leave the EU become the 51st state of the USA in effect a colony of the USA with Donald Trump as our president mark my words Boris Johnson is an american and will sell us off to the USA with a blink of an eye for a trade deal with the USA best stick with the EU strength in numbers!

What facts do you want?? The fact that we will no longer be contributing billions of pounds to prop up the EU? the fact that Canada regularly free trade and got rid of tariffs - we could do the same? the fact that Britain has a large trade deficit with the EU, so is it not in European interests to find the compromise? Who else is going to buy the German cars and the French wine? the fact, above all, we keep our sovereignty? the fact that we would regain control of our borders?

Like I said earlier, people seldom change their views and after the last few years of watching many MPs who voted to Remain squirm and try and find ways to change tack to try and keep us all in the EU just makes me even more determined that we should Brexit with no deal. Shame about Mrs May though I don't really have time for people who say "No deal is better than a bad deal" and then try and find compromises of a deal that pander to those who perhaps voted to remain in Europe, just like she did.

Personally, I think we have more in common with the US than we ever did with Europe. For a start, we understand them. Those unelected EU bureaucrats...I wouldn't trust anyone of them. They will single handedly try and destroy us. Theres far too much scare-mongering going on here, its really time to be bold, for those that don't want to, well, you may as well clear off to Scotland...

Everyone understands a country with 8000 nuclear warheads and one of those missiles has 12 100 kt warheads on them 15kt wiped out Nagasaki and we have a lunatic in charge of them just how do we propose to feed our nation if any country decides they will attack us we need imports more now than in the 1930s and 1940s and Germany nearly did it by cutting off our sea trade! Don't forget your history postsilppete we got our ass kicked in 1776 war of Independence but also in 1812 and also 1956 and very nearly in 1982 care to name the actions we found out the USA were not on our side and that is without the great dictator in sight!

[baldrick]

Baldrick - the vacuous statements of the far right don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

Yeah I know clash, but it seems a lot of people are taken in by them.

[baldrick]

Personally, I think we have more in common with the US than we ever did with Europe.

If we have to rely on the US their rules will be imposed on us, deregulation of food imports (chlorinated chicken, gm crops, and hormone injected meat among others).
Also they will be demanding unrestricted access to the UK for US pharmaceutical companies and private healthcare providers which would mean the end of the NHS in reality.
Do you really want the US healthcare system here which would mean private health insurance where only the rich could afford to have serious or ongoing medical conditions treated?

[baldrick]

What facts do you want?? the fact that Britain has a large trade deficit with the EU, so is it not in European interests to find the compromise? Who else is going to buy the German cars and the French wine?

German cars, French wine and other EU produce will be sold to the US, China, India and other expanding economies (including within Europe). And UK consumers will still buy them, even if they cost more.

Yes we import more in cash terms from the EU than we export to them as the EU is a lot bigger than the UK. But in percentage terms we rely on them a lot more for our exports (44%) than they export to us (8%).

Screenshot 2019-05-25 at 07.33.54.png

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[TrueBlueTerrier]

Those unelected EU bureaucrats...I wouldn't trust anyone of them.

and our own unelected bureaucrats, the Civil Service ????

[baldrick]

Th House of Lords is unelected too.

[Woody Guthrie]

If we elect bureaucrats don't they cease to be bureaucrats? They are by their very definition un-elected.

What seems to irk some people is the fact that these faceless people are involved in the decision making process of government but do we really want important decisions left to career politicians who have no experience in the field they are responsible for.

A minister can be moved from defence to work and pensions then on to education in the space of 6 months. Are we really so gullible to believe that this elected representative should be making those diverse and technical decisions without input from the many back room staff or "bureaucrats" as some like to call them who are specialists in their particular roles.

Personally the thought of career politicians making life or death decisions makes my blood run cold.

Bureaucracy is an easy target and no doubt there are probably too many of them in Brussels just like Westminster but they are a crucial part of government. Liam Fox was defence secretary for f**k sake but I doubt he would know which end of a rifle was the business end.

[baldrick]

Liam Fox was defence secretary for f**k sake but I doubt he would know which end of a rifle was the business end.

Gavin Williamson, the recently sacked Defence Secretary, was known as 'Private Pike' by high level military staff. His suggestions included firing paintballs at Spanish warships near Gibraltar, and mounting guns on tractors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... aplessness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Before becoming a MP he was a fireplace salesman, so obviously he is better qualified to make decisions on behalf of the country than 'unelected bureaucrats'.

[Tman]

The rather obvious difference being that "we" can elect (or not) MP's like Fox and Williamson, unlike the Sir Humphries of the world. We have enough of our own without another few layers of them in Brussels.
If the "unelected bureaucrats" (of the last few posts) are so good and MPs so ignorant, why do we bother with the costly upheaval of a GE every few years?

[Woody Guthrie]

If the "unelected bureaucrats" (of the last few posts) are so good and MPs so ignorant, why do we bother with the costly upheaval of a GE every few years?

A government through its manifesto and the people through their vote may decide what to do but the unelected bureaucrats are tasked with the job of how to do it or whether it is even feasible.
If you can't figure out the difference there's little hope for you.

Your comment that we have enough of our own shows an almost infantile lack of understanding, after Brexit we will have to have a great deal more of our own who will be tasked with the job of backfilling the work on trade , immigration, fisheries, agriculture, financial regulation and a whole host of other subjects that those "unelected bureaucrats" in Brussels have been covering for the best part of 40 years.

Civil service jobs will be the only growth industry in the new isolated not very united kingdom.

[Tman]

"Infantile" "little hope" etc. This is the sort of pejorative rhetoric that's dogged the whole Brexit debate from Day One.
"I'm clever, you clearly aren't..so there." If you want to play that game...
Obviously you've totally missed the reasons (whether you consider them to be accurate or not is irrelevant) why the country voted to Leave the EU, and one of those reasons is the large number of unelected (and uncontrolled) bureaucrats paid for by the UK subscription.
What may happen after Brexit (if it ever happens) regarding extra levels in the Civil Service wasn't an issue back in 2016 for the voters,and so that's another pointless strawman argument you've introduced.
The good old standbys of "ah yebbut whatabout" has worn very thin.

[Woody Guthrie]

What may happen after Brexit (if it ever happens) regarding extra levels in the Civil Service wasn't an issue back in 2016 for the voters

Why wasn't it an issue?
Surely any sensible debate about the merits or otherwise of "unelected bureaucrats" would encompass the potential end game of a vote to leave the EU but that's really the problem here, the narrative concerning EU excess is the only game in town for guys like Farage and Johnson, it's finger wagging politics of the most puerile kind.

Nobody wants to talk about potential consequences of leaving the EU because that requires some critical thinking so it's labelled as project fear. What the pro-Brexit position has become is a parody of the far left, all slogans and no solutions, a bunch of cardboard warriors lacking the ability to hear anything but their own voices in their insular echo chamber.

An SWP for the saga generation.