CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[baldrick]

It is very easy. Revert to WTO rules.

That's not what the pro-Brexit campaign was saying during the referendum campaign. They claimed that making a deal with the EU would be the easiest deal in human history.
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And going to WTO terms is not 'very easy'. No other country in the world trades exclusively on WTO terms. Even countries like the US, India and Brazil which trade largely on WTO terms have separate trade agreements with their neighbours. I know some of the hardline Brexiteers like to suggest that WTO terms are an easy fix, but it's not that simple - most things in life aren't and especially in international trade and politics.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upload ... -Guide.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apart from having trade deals with their neighbours as part of a trading bloc (like the European Customs Union), the US, India and Brazil also have trade agreements with the the EU, recognising it to be a major trade bloc and market.

[k979aaa]

Well it's probably the only thing the CWU are standing firm on we all have a view on BREXIT and a second referendum but the fact is the whole premise of any referendum is to vote on the facts that were presented at the time and the vote was to leave. But during the course of time the facts have been proven to be manipulated at the time of the vote for the needs of certain groups in the Conservative party hell bent on leaving the EU that they lied to the whole nation. Whilst it may be true at the time we as a nation voted to leave the EU we cannot ignore that we now know all the facts that were at the time no one knew or people told lie's about but now we have established the facts and on that basis a second vote would either confirm BREXIT or refuse it based on the facts now present. I believe that we should have this vote as this is the single most important issue we all face we could if we leave the EU become the 51st state of the USA in effect a colony of the USA with Donald Trump as our president mark my words Boris Johnson is an american and will sell us off to the USA with a blink of an eye for a trade deal with the USA best stick with the EU strength in numbers!

[Woody Guthrie]

Conservative party hell bent on leaving the EU that they lied to the whole nation.

The Conservative party position was remain.

Whether anyone lied or not is irrelevant.

A second referendum will not resolve the situation unless there was a 65-70% majority either way, all the polls suggest that people are as entrenched in their position as they were 3 years ago, the narrative whether lies or not is mostly still seen to be true by those who felt it true 3 years ago. The idea that the population has seen the light is wishful thinking on the part of those asking for a second referendum.

There will be a farcical attempt to give MPs the chance to coalesce around some alternative strategy, it will inevitably fail, May's deal or a version of it will be voted through within the next 4 weeks. There may be talk of a confirmatory vote, it doesn't matter whether that happens or not. It will be confirmed mainly because the public are fed up with Brexit and the narrative is that we've exhausted all reasonable avenues. This narrative is no accident, that's how May has played it from the start. There will be a lock in clause to stop Boris revisiting it and f***ing everything up again with a no deal Brexit.

Before the usual attacks start I'm not placing myself on the side of this outcome, it's a s**t show and a damm shame that a so called civilised country wants to self harm in this way and make itself once again the sick man of Europe but this is how it will come to pass.

Me, I'm going to buy myself a little cottage way up in the north of Scotland and live my life without a TV or the internet, I've seen and heard enough intolerance and hatred in the last 3 years to last me two lifetimes.

[mickeymacca]

I agree K9. Initially I thought we should honour the result and leave, but seeing how the architects of the debacle fail to have taken any responsibility for the mess, leads me to believe that they will continue to scapegoat after the event as well.

I received a leaflet from the Brexit Party yesterday on which a bloke called Ben Habib CEO of First Property PLC said ' I do deals for a living, taking No Deal off the table is bonkers'.
I thought No deal was what they were claiming we were voting for all along, Leave means Leave and all that claptrap, they're so duplicitous.

[k979aaa]

If you read my post it say certain groups in the conservative party, As to resolving the situation by a vote why not it is better to vote than to wage war and believe you me we are at war this is like the English Civil War families are divided by this issue and even political parties cannot agree these are dangerous times but also interesting times. Anyway good luck Woody Guthrie and all the best just watch for SNP knocking on your door the conservatives are an endangered species in Scotland!

[Woody Guthrie]

Anyway good luck Woody Guthrie and all the best just watch for SNP knocking on your door the conservatives are an endangered species in Scotland!

A long driveway and a 12 gauge should keep things civilised. Of course I'll fire a warning shot first.....maybe.

[Tman]

Taking "no deal" off the table was ridiculous though, especially at the very time that the BBC, Sky etc were reporting a softening of attitudes by Barnier and co.
Only politicians detached from the real world could have possibly ever thought that weakening the negotiating team's hand in this way was sensible or desirable.
I wonder if they walk into a car dealership and say "I'm not leaving here today without a car" as an opening gambit?
Thinking about it Yvette Cooper probably would..

just watch for SNP knocking on your door the conservatives are an endangered species in Scotland!

Judging the results in the last GE it's Labour who are more endangered north of the border.

[k979aaa]

I agree K9. Initially I thought we should honour the result and leave, but seeing how the architects of the debacle fail to have taken any responsibility for the mess, leads me to believe that they will continue to scapegoat after the event as well.

I received a leaflet from the Brexit Party yesterday on which a bloke called Ben Habib CEO of First Property PLC said ' I do deals for a living, taking No Deal off the table is bonkers'.
I thought No deal was what they were claiming we were voting for all along, Leave means Leave and all that claptrap, they're so duplicitous.

A lot of these people who are the movers and shakers of the nation influential business types think by leaving the EU they can break the working man because of getting rid of red tape much more sinister is the far right in the conservative party like Dominic Rabb and Jacob Rees-Mogg these people believe in banning unions and the subjugation of the working man/woman deeming us all unfit to vote !

[Woody Guthrie]

No deal was such an unpopular and potentially calamitous outcome that to be honest it was never really going to be on the table in the first place. The EU are no mugs and knew that so taking it off the table was nothing more than a token gesture.

What people seem to forget is that this is only the withdrawal bill, the real negotiations over our future relationship with Europe will only start after we've left so there's still the option that we won't be able to reach agreement on trade, agriculture and fisheries, immigration and the multitude of other deals within deals that will have to be done.

Using buying a car as an analogy is nonsense, we're not buying anything, this is a divorce and spitting the dummy out by threatening to walk away from the lawyers doesn't change your obligations, it just means that the wife is likely to get the better deal.

[k979aaa]

No deal was such an unpopular and potentially calamitous outcome that to be honest it was never really going to be on the table in the first place. The EU are no mugs and knew that so taking it off the table was nothing more than a token gesture.

What people seem to forget is that this is only the withdrawal bill, the real negotiations over our future relationship with Europe will only start after we've left so there's still the option that we won't be able to reach agreement on trade, agriculture and fisheries, immigration and the multitude of other deals within deals that will have to be done.

Using buying a car as an analogy is nonsense, we're not buying anything, this is a divorce and spitting the dummy out by threatening to walk away from the lawyers doesn't change your obligations, it just means that the wife is likely to get the better deal.

We would not be looking to buy a foreign car because all the car makers pulled their investment in this country nor would we looking for a good deal from powerful nations that could crush us in days nor would we accept a leader who cannot lead or potentially Neo-fascism under mogg johnson rabb etal elite

[Woody Guthrie]

It's long past time for tub thumping and declaring in loud voices what we won't accept.
It's time for a reality check, this was never going to end well but we've made a daft decision and we're pretty much given the level of division involved...stuck with it.

Now is the time to start talking about what we would accept and how to mitigate as much as possible the harmful effects of this clusterfuckian omnishambles. As workers we need to unite to defend ourselves from the Johnsons, the Rees-Moggs and unfortunately also the Corbyns of this world who will by malice or in the case of Corbyn wilful inaction attack our living standards.

There are no leavers and remainers now, we're all in the same leaky lifeboat with the sharks circling.

[yellowbelly]

What does wind me up is the cost (about 114 million euros a year apparently) to move the EU parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg for four days each month.........

[k979aaa]

It's long past time for tub thumping and declaring in loud voices what we won't accept.
It's time for a reality check, this was never going to end well but we've made a daft decision and we're pretty much given the level of division involved...stuck with it.

Now is the time to start talking about what we would accept and how to mitigate as much as possible the harmful effects of this clusterfuckian omnishambles. As workers we need to unite to defend ourselves from the Johnsons, the Rees-Moggs and unfortunately also the Corbyns of this world who will by malice or in the case of Corbyn wilful inaction attack our living standards.

There are no leavers and remainers now, we're all in the same leaky lifeboat with the sharks circling.

Well some of us are some can go to Scotland other than that we are where we are Corbyn has been said on here extreme well he would be compared to Rees-Mogg and Johnson and Rabb but voting for a centrist like oh Clegg where did that get us conservative government tuition fees and a referendum on something only tories backbenchers were talking about! Don't for get the centrist architect Vince Cable man of Fable privatised the Royal Mail in his wisdom the froth of sale and the lib dem's went hand in hand the only people who stand in the centre are those who do know which side they are on do that on a road and you are run over!

[postslippete]

Well it's probably the only thing the CWU are standing firm on we all have a view on BREXIT and a second referendum but the fact is the whole premise of any referendum is to vote on the facts that were presented at the time and the vote was to leave. But during the course of time the facts have been proven to be manipulated at the time of the vote for the needs of certain groups in the Conservative party hell bent on leaving the EU that they lied to the whole nation. Whilst it may be true at the time we as a nation voted to leave the EU we cannot ignore that we now know all the facts that were at the time no one knew or people told lie's about but now we have established the facts and on that basis a second vote would either confirm BREXIT or refuse it based on the facts now present. I believe that we should have this vote as this is the single most important issue we all face we could if we leave the EU become the 51st state of the USA in effect a colony of the USA with Donald Trump as our president mark my words Boris Johnson is an american and will sell us off to the USA with a blink of an eye for a trade deal with the USA best stick with the EU strength in numbers!

What facts do you want?? The fact that we will no longer be contributing billions of pounds to prop up the EU? the fact that Canada regularly free trade and got rid of tariffs - we could do the same? the fact that Britain has a large trade deficit with the EU, so is it not in European interests to find the compromise? Who else is going to buy the German cars and the French wine? the fact, above all, we keep our sovereignty? the fact that we would regain control of our borders?

Like I said earlier, people seldom change their views and after the last few years of watching many MPs who voted to Remain squirm and try and find ways to change tack to try and keep us all in the EU just makes me even more determined that we should Brexit with no deal. Shame about Mrs May though I don't really have time for people who say "No deal is better than a bad deal" and then try and find compromises of a deal that pander to those who perhaps voted to remain in Europe, just like she did.

Personally, I think we have more in common with the US than we ever did with Europe. For a start, we understand them. Those unelected EU bureaucrats...I wouldn't trust anyone of them. They will single handedly try and destroy us. Theres far too much scare-mongering going on here, its really time to be bold, for those that don't want to, well, you may as well clear off to Scotland...

[clashcityrocker]

the fact that we would regain control of our borders?

A much spouted sound bite.
When exactly do you think you had control of your borders?
When exactly do you think you lost control of your borders?