CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[Woody Guthrie]

It is very easy. Revert to WTO rules.

And how pray tell would that not be....divisive and unproductive?
Just because you like that ideology doesn't mean the majority of the UK want that, you're proposing a solution that has no political or democratic mandate and yet you cry foul about other undemocratic solutions.

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

[mickeymacca]

Hi Woody, an outcome would be to just cancel it, stop the messing around with second referendums, indicative votes, 'who did wot to who' etc.

You surely can't be naïve enough to think that that would be any sort of solution? No repercussions of any sort? We all just carry on as before?
Ignoring a government-sanctioned and approved vote by the electorate is the actions of a banana republic.

It could be argued the bounce in the economy would be much more significant than if we leave, if we did that.

By whom?
And it could be argued that the possible ensuing civil unrest and wilful disobedience plus the complete demolition of faith in the UK democratic process would affect the country for decades.

Yes I am very naive, and don't believe most law abiding people would do much more than have a bit of a moan and then get on with their lives, indeed from my experience your average Leaver likes nothing more than moaning and being quite angry so it would provide some welcome relief in that area (what are they going to be angry about if we leave?).

The 'No Deal' impact assessment provided by the UK govt. indicates a fall in the economy over the next 10 -15 years for up to 10%. Rees Mogg reinforces this with his view it could take up to 50 years to see the benefits of leaving (although he's probably changed that again). Against that backdrop I think it is reasonable to suggest that a return to the status quo pre-referndum would be a shot in the arm for business planning, investment etc. desperate for certainty, and would have to go some way to be worse than the other scenario.

How has your life improved regarding the EU since the referendum result? Is it really that important to people? (rhetorical,it obviously is), it just seems to me to be the cult of the inadequate middle aged man. I was offering a suggestion as to how a solution could be reached, I read yours earlier in the thread and it appeared to be pretty vague, why don't you try again.

[postslippete]

It is very easy. Revert to WTO rules.

And how pray tell would that not be....divisive and unproductive?
Just because you like that ideology doesn't mean the majority of the UK want that, you're proposing a solution that has no political or democratic mandate and yet you cry foul about other undemocratic solutions.

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Having a 2nd vote is definitely not going to work - its divisive, unproductive and expensive. The 52-48 who voted in favour of Bexit does not reveal the fact that most towns and cities in England actually voted overwhelmingly in support of leaving the EU. The problem that we have now is that our parliament is divisive and unproductive. There appears to be many MPs that seem hellbent on stopping Brexit by refusing to agree on anything. So at present we seem to be heading a little bit aimlessly towards a no-deal Brexit scenario. It might not solve the Irish backstop nor short term disruption but we will save £39 billion and seek out new trade deals. It won't be easy but I'm convinced once import tariffs go up from Europe, it won't just hurt us but it will hurt countries like Germany, their trade and employment, which relies on us buying their Audis, BMWs and Volkswagons. The cheap food shop at Aldi and Lidl, well, we know we can produce and grow our own. We might have to pay more but its hard to say that increased domestic productivity and profits that get retained in our country should be considered as a bad thing. It only takes one vital link to drop in the chain that constitutes the EU to come crashing down.

[baldrick]

It is very easy. Revert to WTO rules.

That's not what the pro-Brexit campaign was saying during the referendum campaign. They claimed that making a deal with the EU would be the easiest deal in human history.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng ... ly-dropped" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And going to WTO terms is not 'very easy'. No other country in the world trades exclusively on WTO terms. Even countries like the US, India and Brazil which trade largely on WTO terms have separate trade agreements with their neighbours. I know some of the hardline Brexiteers like to suggest that WTO terms are an easy fix, but it's not that simple - most things in life aren't and especially in international trade and politics.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upload ... -Guide.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[wacko74]

I wouldn't pretend to have a clue whether Brexit is a good think or not, all I do know is those who are most opposed to it are...

-The banks
-The multi national corporations
-The vast majority of the self serving and out of touch political establishment
-The wealthy and financially insulated 'liberal left' (who seem to be little more than the brainwashed 'useful idiots' who are actually doing the bidding of the globalists and
corporatists who they claim to oppose)

On that basis alone I'm instinctively inclined to be in favour of Brexit.

[baldrick]

wacko74 I have my criticisms of the EU. Especially their neo-liberal free market policies which have insisted on the opening up of markets to 'competion', which means nationalised industries like Royal Mail had to allow down stream access and cherry picking of the profitable parts of the process.
I don't like a lot of the people and business interests which are for remaining in the EU. But there are also people I don't like (including big business owners) who are pro-Brexit.
I am not 100% pro-EU, I'm probably about 60/40 in favour of remaining. I know there are faults with the EU, but I think people are better working with one another, especially their neighbours.
I think that being outside is worse than being in. And I think that the EU does need reforming and we can't influence that if we are not a member.

[Tman]

Just three examples of why the EU is both inefficient and failing-

1) The move (for four days a month) from Brussels to Strasbourg merely to flatter French preening vanities. It costs billions in both time and physical costs and achieves precisely nothing.
2) The horrendous rate of youth unemployment in developed western democracies like France and Spain (among others). If a federation like the EU should be good for anything at all it ought to be implementing fiscal policies to alleviate the corrosive effects of unemployment on the young, rather than worrying about trivia like too-powerful vacuum cleaners etc. Clearly the EU have the money for this, as in 1).
3) Pushing the boundaries of the EU up to the borders of Putin's already belligerent Russia. That can't end well, and who are the EU going to call on should things get more physical? The French wine growers? Portugese sardine canners? They have no cohesive military force (at present) so pulling that particular tiger's tail is ill-advised at best.

As a trading bloc (EEC) it was a great idea, but as a political federation of nations run by centralised bureaucrats its a disaster.

[Woody Guthrie]

Just three examples of why the EU is both inefficient and failing-

Why?
That horse has bolted, we've made our decision and apparently it's "undemocratic" and will lead to civil war if we change that decision so now it's time for the EU bashers to front up and come up with a coherent plan that goes a little beyond the let's leave on WTO terms crap.

There appears to be many MPs that seem hellbent on stopping Brexit by refusing to agree on anything. So at present we seem to be heading a little bit aimlessly towards a no-deal Brexit scenario.

The ERG are the biggest barrier to leaving the EU, they are not trying to stop Brexit they are trying to manipulate their own kind of Brexit. We aren't heading aimlessly anywhere, we are being driven towards a no-deal Brexit. If you've haven't worked that out yet you're not really paying attention.

[Woody Guthrie]

It might not solve the Irish backstop nor short term disruption but we will save £39 billion and seek out new trade deals.

There are two problems with that theory.

1. The £39 billion is a legal obligation signed in 2013 and enforceable through the international courts.It isn't subject to us leaving with or without a deal.

2. Trying to negotiate trade deals with the very same countries after you've reneged on your financial obligations to those countries is not going to end well is it?

[clashcityrocker]

We could solve the Irish backstop problem by simply allowing the reunification of Ireland.
After all the people of the North voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. Let them.

[Woody Guthrie]

Arlene Foster will kick the s**t out of you Clash and I'm not bailing you out.

[Tman]

Just three examples of why the EU is both inefficient and failing-

Why?

Yes, "why" indeed would anyone think such an organisation worthy of membership, and why would some do all in their power to frustrate Brexit and remain part of it?
BTW I notice you didn't attempt to refute my points?

[Woody Guthrie]

I suppose on reflection we could allow the DUP a free transfer to Govan (will the bosman ruling still count after Brexit?), it's like a home from home.

[Woody Guthrie]

[BTW I notice you didn't attempt to refute my points?

Refuting or rebutting a moot point is a waste of both our time.
This is where the problem lies, you've spent so long trashing the EU that you think it's a substitute for a coherent plan, If we just keep saying how s**t the EU is nobody will notice how much s**t we are in.

Works right up until the part where it becomes a.....moot point.
We're leaving...get over it, no more excuses.
Scary ain't it...

[Tman]

[BTW I notice you didn't attempt to refute my points?

Refuting or rebutting a moot point is a waste of both our time.
.

The Strasbourg to Brussels and back pantomime is a moot point?
Youth unemployment is a moot point?
The EU expansion is also a moot point?

These aren't moot points, opinions or anything else other than facts.