CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

[postslippete]

It was a simple binary question "In or out" and although people like yourself criticise it now by saying that "people didn't know...." patronising cliché, that was what was on the paper at that time and the choice was on that premise. To attempt to question or nullify the result by, again, that tired old cliché, is just lame.
I think a second referendum would be a sensible way to move forward, as long as the options were a) something like May's deal 2) some other deal hammered out by the Tories and Labour, or 3) some other option yet to be decided between now and October.
There should be no option to cancel or rescind Article 50 as that been done and voted on, and although Remainers want to see some sort of rerun, it's
undemocratic to vote on issues on which the majority have already made their choice merely in the hope that the outcome might be different.

How can it be 'undemocratic' to allow people to have a democratic vote?

Before the 2016 referendum Farage said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign wins two-thirds to one third that ends it".

In 2011 Jacob Rees-Mogg tweeted "We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the negotiation is complete".

in 2012 David Davis said "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy".

I don't think there should be a referendum to reverse Brexit, but to determine the terms on which we leave the EU, which the pro-Brexit campaigners told us would be easy to negotiate.
It should include the option of remaining in the European Customs Union, and a 'No Deal' Brexit.

Apologies, remainers

The only real reason of letting the public have another vote is to still have us tied down to the EU in some way like...... remaining in the European Customs Union. Why anyone can't see that the European project is failing badly is simply beyond me.

[baldrick]

The only real reason of letting the public have another vote is to still have us tied down to the EU in some way like...... remaining in the European Customs Union. Why anyone can't see that the European project is failing badly is simply beyond me.

I don't want another referendum. I'd accept whatever parliament decides, but it doesn't seem they can agree on how we leave the EU, so a referendum might be the only way to break the impasse.
The reasons for remaining in the Customs Union would be to resolve the Irish Backstop dilemma, and because the EU are our neighbours and at present 44% of our exports are to EU countries.
Of course the UK will be looking to increase exports to the US and developing economies outside Europe, but EU regulations are likely to make this difficult. At the time of the 2016 referendum we were assured that the rest of the world would be falling over themselves to make trade agreements with the UK, but only a handful have been made three years later.

[greengiant]

So if the CWU decided to go out for an evening meal, and voted on a choice of restaurant, only to find out after voting that it served only deep fried rat, the CWU wouldn't hold another vote to choose another restaurant?

[NWpostie]

So if the CWU decided to go out for an evening meal, and voted on a choice of restaurant, only to find out after voting that it served only deep fried rat, the CWU wouldn't hold another vote to choose another restaurant?

That's the most absurd analogy as a way to defend stopping brexit without appearing to overturn democracy.

Having another referendum is divisive and unproductive.
What if the second referendum is 51% remain 49% leave to use the Remain viewpoint "not conclusive" what then ? best out of three ? Or five ?

[Woody Guthrie]

Having another referendum is divisive and unproductive.

What do you suggest we do next that wouldn't be divisive and unproductive?

[Celgar]

All most of the MPs are concerned with is not losing their seats(cushy jobs). For most of the current batch we can all go to hell in a handcart for all they care. If they could manage to arrange a so-called peoples vote then get a majority remain vote then they get to keep their seats and say it was our fault/decision.
Europe is largely controlled by Germany & France and the French still have a chip on their shoulders. Germany would have preferred to give us a slightly better deal but there is so much hate still from the French. I would say most people in the UK are so angry about how they have treated us that a people's vote would result in a higher majority vote to leave the EU.

[Tman]

So if the CWU decided to go out for an evening meal, and voted on a choice of restaurant, only to find out after voting that it served only deep fried rat, the CWU wouldn't hold another vote to choose another restaurant?

That's the most absurd analogy as a way to defend stopping brexit without appearing to overturn democracy.

Indeed it is. A closer analogy would be that the CWU voted on the choice of restaurant, and the minority members who didn't vote for this particular restaurant claimed that the food was "deep fired rat" in order to prompt another vote to go somewhere else more to their liking.
And so with the Brexit process, the minority attempting to over-rule the wishes of the majority by using baseless claims (Project Fear) and propaganda.

[Woody Guthrie]

And so with the Brexit process, the minority attempting to over-rule the wishes of the majority by using baseless claims

Mud slinging about baseless claims is ridiculous by either side. It's one of the many reasons there is such division as the level of disinformation from both sides has undermined the entire "democratic" validity of the first referendum and would more than likely render any subsequent referendum just as invalid.

Dumb analogies aside I would still like to hear what anyone believes would be an outcome to this sorry mess that won't leave us a deeply divided country in a political mess. We are in a constitutional crisis and Brexit was simply the trigger not the disease, delivering Brexit will not be the cure, if anything it may worsen the symptoms.

[mickeymacca]

And so with the Brexit process, the minority attempting to over-rule the wishes of the majority by using baseless claims

Mud slinging about baseless claims is ridiculous by either side. It's one of the many reasons there is such division as the level of disinformation from both sides has undermined the entire "democratic" validity of the first referendum and would more than likely render any subsequent referendum just as invalid.

Dumb analogies aside I would still like to hear what anyone believes would be an outcome to this sorry mess that won't leave us a deeply divided country in a political mess. We are in a constitutional crisis and Brexit was simply the trigger not the disease, delivering Brexit will not be the cure, if anything it may worsen the symptoms.

Hi Woody, an outcome would be to just cancel it, stop the messing around with second referendums, indicative votes, 'who did wot to who' etc.

It could be argued the bounce in the economy would be much more significant than if we leave, if we did that.

Arguments to justify such a decison to cancel it could involve:

The Cambridgre Analytica scandal - harvesting of information and targeting of voters on social Media.
Overspending on Campaigns by the Leave camapign.
Murky financing of the Leave.EU campaign by all round s**t-pig Arron Banks.
Immorality of continued campaigning by the Leave campaign during the campaign amnesty after the Jo Cox assassination.
Untruths put forward by the Leave campaign regarding the campaign bus and £350 million for the NHS.
The disenfranchisement from the referendum of UK citizens living abroad. (circa 700,000).
The disenfranchisment from the referendum of EU citizens living in the UK.
The gridlocked HoP emphasised by the confused voting patterns of the prominent Leave campaigners.
Peace in Northern Ireland.
Sanctity of the United Kingdom.
Keeping purple passports.

I'm sure there is going to be a second referendum and like others cannot really see the point unless there was is a clear majority (over 60%) on either side, indeed that should have been the stipulation before the first one.

[Marshamp11]

Stay, leave, stay, leave. Im beginning to favour dissolving the parliament completely and become the EUs puppet state to let them run our affairs for us because given the way this country has handled the whole issue of brexit we would be absolutely unable to negotiate anything on the world stage for ourselves.

[NWpostie]

Having another referendum is divisive and unproductive.

What do you suggest we do next that wouldn't be divisive and unproductive?

Accepting the result would be a start !!!

Anything else is undemocratic.

[Tman]

Hi Woody, an outcome would be to just cancel it, stop the messing around with second referendums, indicative votes, 'who did wot to who' etc.

You surely can't be naïve enough to think that that would be any sort of solution? No repercussions of any sort? We all just carry on as before?
Ignoring a government-sanctioned and approved vote by the electorate is the actions of a banana republic.

It could be argued the bounce in the economy would be much more significant than if we leave, if we did that.

By whom?
And it could be argued that the possible ensuing civil unrest and wilful disobedience plus the complete demolition of faith in the UK democratic process would affect the country for decades.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Having another referendum is divisive and unproductive.

What do you suggest we do next that wouldn't be divisive and unproductive?

Accepting the result would be a start !!!

Anything else is undemocratic.

But apparently, it wouldn't have been if Remain had won 52/48 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu ... m-36306681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

[Woody Guthrie]

Having another referendum is divisive and unproductive.

What do you suggest we do next that wouldn't be divisive and unproductive?

Accepting the result would be a start !!!

Anything else is undemocratic.

Accepting the result isn't the problem but the result only said we would leave, it didn't address the messy work of how exactly we leave in a way that isn't....divisive and unproductive so your solution isn't really a solution at all it's just a meaningless sound bite.

[NWpostie]

Having another referendum is divisive and unproductive.

What do you suggest we do next that wouldn't be divisive and unproductive?

Accepting the result would be a start !!!

Anything else is undemocratic.

Accepting the result isn't the problem but the result only said we would leave, it didn't address the messy work of how exactly we leave in a way that isn't....divisive and unproductive so your solution isn't really a solution at all it's just a meaningless sound bite.

It is very easy. Revert to WTO rules.