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Been given notice after 11weeks

Postal workers discussion forum. Discuss the day to day life in a Blue Shirt.
postslippete
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Post by postslippete »

Jahpostie wrote:As a part timer I have no idea what the full responsibilities of a full timer are. Should all frames be fully populated by full timers before a part timer starts? Also, should the packets also be up on the frame for the part timers before they start? Is this the supposed planned scenario? Or is it just meant to be the letters?

Generally speaking, yes. Part-timers were initially planned by Royal Mail to act as "bag-carriers', in other words, they simply come in with their frames fully prepped and ready to go.

However, there are many reasons why this might not be the case.
On the face of it, shareholder value is the dumbest idea in the world.
Celgar
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Post by Celgar »

Jahpostie wrote:As a part timer I have no idea what the full responsibilities of a full timer are. Should all frames be fully populated by full timers before a part timer starts? Also, should the packets also be up on the frame for the part timers before they start? Is this the supposed planned scenario? Or is it just meant to be the letters?
The DO I work in is largely composed of full time duties but as far as I know all the prep and the redirections are meant to be completed for part timers leaving you to bundle it up into pouches/trays, collect your SDs, and deliver it.
The views I express here are mine alone and do not represent the views of Royal Mail Group.
south London postie
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Post by south London postie »

Bit mad to think the job now could be the same as it was before the internet, privatisation, part-timers, etc. Even the most senior people say they now think of the job not as a postal company that delivers parcels and packages, but a parcel business that deliver post - that's their own definition. It has changed that much thatquickly.

What I say to people is any frame built even 3 years ago but certainly 5 years ago can only be a guide for what you can do in a shift. Certainly in London, the job now is defined by the internet and what that dumps in your lap every morning. Complete nonsense to let your work load be defined by a frame built effectively in another era, even if that era was only a few years ago. Most senior RM management backs you up on this by their new definition of the business.

Just to add; I would say it's moving that quickly now, things haven't even dropped back to how they were before the last Black Friday.
tommyrep
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Post by tommyrep »

SpacePhoenix wrote:
Woody Guthrie wrote:As someone who has been a rep at unit and branch level for many years I can tell you that starting early and finishing early doesn't cost jobs if an office has a decent rep, if you're losing hours it's because they're not there to protect in the first place.
Higher up aren't going to care that someone has started before their time, all they'll see will people finishing before their official time. They'll just add them hours up and make the DOMs remove them hours out of the office
You are right, Woody seems to talk of others "virtues". Yet as a UnionRep at both local and area level as he claims, he will be well aware of the Union mantra of a Rep being encouraged to go back to units and spread/advocate the virtues of doing the job properly to protect jobs! Not to endorse and encourage it by supporting any offenders! He is not following the Unions stance on doing the job properly to help secure jobs and any future jobs.
He is not giving the true picture of hour removal from an office when a senior manager visits a DO and looks at the time back/finished column on a signing in/out sheet. He puts all the onus back on a weak rep and that is what I would call a cop out from a supposed rep with no encouragement of staff unity and turning a blind eye at best to encouraging- which is a bigger problem in delivery- going against already agreed procedure with RM. he misses the point and the real effect of maverick action by posties. By his own style of criticism of the merits other people's virtues, FFS !!
His other back handed attack on the mention of " colleagues hanging their heads in shame", HE, like all poor debaters has taken that comment out of context for his own benefit. IF he truly believes that there are not a LOT of devious minded colleagues out there who contribute towards a lot of the grief, like the treatment experienced as described by the original poster, he is deluded. A lot of the dirty underhand goings on in a delivery office, festered by some OPGs towards colleagues, originate on the whispering office floor grapevine in the full knowledge that it will work its way back to the DOMs attention.
Jahpostie
EX ROYAL MAIL
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Post by Jahpostie »

postslippete wrote:
Jahpostie wrote:As a part timer I have no idea what the full responsibilities of a full timer are. Should all frames be fully populated by full timers before a part timer starts? Also, should the packets also be up on the frame for the part timers before they start? Is this the supposed planned scenario? Or is it just meant to be the letters?

Generally speaking, yes. Part-timers were initially planned by Royal Mail to act as "bag-carriers', in other words, they simply come in with their frames fully prepped and ready to go.

However, there are many reasons why this might not be the case.
Such as Full timer's can't be arsed as they want to get out the door quicker. I wonder if my membership of the Union is worth it. Our rep is not concerned about the part timers. He tells us to work to our time or walks will be lost, yet he's going out the door as I'm coming in to mail to put in the frame, packets to put up and redirections to do.
postslippete
Posts: 4198
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Been given notice after 11weeks

Post by postslippete »

Jahpostie wrote:
postslippete wrote:
Jahpostie wrote:As a part timer I have no idea what the full responsibilities of a full timer are. Should all frames be fully populated by full timers before a part timer starts? Also, should the packets also be up on the frame for the part timers before they start? Is this the supposed planned scenario? Or is it just meant to be the letters?

Generally speaking, yes. Part-timers were initially planned by Royal Mail to act as "bag-carriers', in other words, they simply come in with their frames fully prepped and ready to go.

However, there are many reasons why this might not be the case.
Such as Full timer's can't be arsed as they want to get out the door quicker. I wonder if my membership of the Union is worth it. Our rep is not concerned about the part timers. He tells us to work to our time or walks will be lost, yet he's going out the door as I'm coming in to mail to put in the frame, packets to put up and redirections to do.

In our depot many of us full timers work with part-timers as part of van share so we both leave the office at same time. What annoys me though is the Indoor workplans. Managers know we can't fully prep the frames and get out on time if we start on time but it has persisted because there are too many full-timers coming in way too early and forfeiting their break just so they can get out the door. It puts pressure on posties like me who are trying the do the job properly.
On the face of it, shareholder value is the dumbest idea in the world.
k979aaa
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Location: THE NORTH

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Post by k979aaa »

postslippete wrote:
Jahpostie wrote:
postslippete wrote:
Jahpostie wrote:As a part timer I have no idea what the full responsibilities of a full timer are. Should all frames be fully populated by full timers before a part timer starts? Also, should the packets also be up on the frame for the part timers before they start? Is this the supposed planned scenario? Or is it just meant to be the letters?

Generally speaking, yes. Part-timers were initially planned by Royal Mail to act as "bag-carriers', in other words, they simply come in with their frames fully prepped and ready to go.

However, there are many reasons why this might not be the case.
Such as Full timer's can't be arsed as they want to get out the door quicker. I wonder if my membership of the Union is worth it. Our rep is not concerned about the part timers. He tells us to work to our time or walks will be lost, yet he's going out the door as I'm coming in to mail to put in the frame, packets to put up and redirections to do.

In our depot many of us full timers work with part-timers as part of van share so we both leave the office at same time. What annoys me though is the Indoor workplans. Managers know we can't fully prep the frames and get out on time if we start on time but it has persisted because there are too many full-timers coming in way too early and forfeiting their break just so they can get out the door. It puts pressure on posties like me who are trying the do the job properly.
Agreed does but short of wacking them over the head with a 2x4 at 5 AM what can we do about it!
barcajr
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Post by barcajr »

Have never heard of a new starter being given notice for "under performing". More normally its the new starter who quits because the job is not what they expected. In my office, in an effort to reduce the high turnover of new starters, their put on the same van share for a couple of months with an experienced partner so that they can used to the job. Unless there's more to the case than what you are saying, you should challenge it, go and see your union rep, even your DOM pointing out the issues you raised. Good luck mate
tommyrep
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Post by tommyrep »

Postslippette.
It is by design of course! Managers know the true mentality of the posties, they are not stupid!
The indoor work pressurises the FT person to go in early, the FT pressurises the PT person to go in early to assist with the workload BUT the same problem is always the reason " to get out the door early, or as quick as possible".
Get finished before the others, avoid any hassles that claiming OT could present! It's all such infantile behaviour.
The solving of the problem lies with the posties themselves if they could only realise job and knock is a thing of the past.
The early finish time - or should I say before official finish time - is what drives the staff in a delivery office!
If that mentality could be removed there would be no problem really, managers would need to look at the system put in place and resolve the problem- as is THEIR job after all. Our own colleagues dig them out the s**t and they concentrate their efforts on bullying others to do like wise it is truly a viscous circle where only the managers bonus wins and the posties continue to create havoc among themselves, B&H thrives and intimidation to compete with others like the original poster becomes the norm for anyone working in delivery.
Woody Guthrie
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Post by Woody Guthrie »

You are absolutely obsessed with start/finish times tommy to the point where you completely ignore the real reason we're losing hours in delivery offices and that's the reduction in indoor workload due to continuing automation.

All of the hours that have come out of my office in the last 20 years have been based on these facts, no hours have been removed on the basis of posties finishing early, how do you explain that?
Only dead fish follow the current
Essexyposty
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Post by Essexyposty »

Thanks for your comments, I have involved the union and returned the letter in the allocated time to appeal. I have written all my grievances down for me to present. I have worked over my allocated time in the past to finish and been happy to, especially if the person I've been sharing with wants to. However since being put out on my own and not being paid for working over, I have recently been stopping at my allocated time now. Don't think anyone wants to or should work for free. This meant bringing some loops back (max of 2). Always did specials and tracked, never ever bought them back. They then took 2 loops a day off me on that particular walk and I've been completing. This is usually a shared walk, I shared it for 3 days then was put out alone on it. ( It wasn't finished on a shared walk either).
None of my co workers have found me 'slow', I've asked them.
I dont hold out much hope of a reversed decision, its the RM after all, I've read this forum. I've heard that the manager said 'Why should I keep her?' According to GOV.UK you cannot be dismissed for something that other colleagues are allowed to do. This may be my only point of appeal as the union guy says he could name several others who regularly bring mail back. Win or lose, I have to fight my corner for my own peace of mind. Thanks all.
tommyrep
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Post by tommyrep »

Woody Guthrie wrote:You are absolutely obsessed with start/finish times tommy to the point where you completely ignore the real reason we're losing hours in delivery offices and that's the reduction in indoor workload due to continuing automation.

All of the hours that have come out of my office in the last 20 years have been based on these facts, no hours have been removed on the basis of posties finishing early, how do you explain that?
Woody, I am not really that obsessed in all honesty! I am a realist who see's things as they are and the impact it can have on others. Whereas you seem to prefer sticking up for the actions of colleagues that behave in an intimidating manner towards others. I can see the problems created by people's drive to finish early.
You do not agree and you make that plainly clear. I firmly believe, it is generally speaking the weaker (newer!) members who need and rely on decent union representation, the longer service guys in general do not care a jot as selfishness rules the day in a delivery office.
I have based my opinions on past experience! You may have been more fortunate with the senior managers you have dealt with. I have witnessed it at first hand from the introduction of the full revisions many years ago now.
Like many other units I suspect, all attempts to overturn any planners figures at the review stage failed, not surprisingly!
I sat in many meetings since then where the area DSM chaired meetings and before starting any discussions asked the DOM to produce ALL the previous 2 months signing on sheets. HE stressed and made it very clear that time worked prior to starting times were an irrelevance. His argument was furthe enhanced when the OT payments were also introduced.
The DOM had fabricated figures ( how could anyone dispute spread sheet figures at a meeting sprung with having no benefit of prior research and proof?) that were never questioned by him, people'searly starts and non claims for OT were ignored.
Any review periods were still obscured by the same problems, as a Union we were beaten because the posties were unprepared to change. Yeh, there were protestations after the hours ( we are a relatively small unit ) were lost but the main losers were the PT staff due to many selfish FTs attitudes and expectations of work load plied onto PTs rather than them, by that I mean their lot was the least effected.
I do not wish to dispute how things worked out in your Unit, well done if fairness was achieved.
My question is! What about the units poorly represented? Or even not represented at all? They have been ignored by the CWU in a way that large well organised units are NOT. In my opinion those smaller, less well represented are treated with contempt by many managers and the Union are not blameless.
You may be right in assuming I am obsessed, because it is grossly unfair on SOME people being intimidated while others are not. Forgive me if I am wrong in assuming you seem to see no wrong in others actions at the sufferance of weaker, lesser seniority types in a DO who get the shitty end of the stick.
Maybe some day your unit members will see the error of your ways, then again if the figures stack up in your favour the old school FTs will guarantee your position at the next Union Rep election.
Good luck, but spare a thought for those units who do not enjoy the fruits of your expertise as a Union Rep, or any of those with NO representation whatsoever.
Jahpostie
EX ROYAL MAIL
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Post by Jahpostie »

DOs should have a part time union rep, representing part time interests. I suspect most union reps are full time and only give a monkeys about full timer interests and getting home early.
tommyrep
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Post by tommyrep »

Woody Guthrie wrote:You are absolutely obsessed with start/finish times tommy to the point where you completely ignore the real reason we're losing hours in delivery offices and that's the reduction in indoor workload due to continuing automation.

All of the hours that have come out of my office in the last 20 years have been based on these facts, no hours have been removed on the basis of posties finishing early, how do you explain that?
Oh, sorry forgot to give you a response on the point you make on indoor workload reduction due solely to automation.
NO they are NOT the only hours lost based on the "facts" you mention like the IWT.
Hours will go of course due to automation improvements, but RM still wish to utilise all PAID hours, that is up to and including the "official" finish time. RM have NO interest in any work done before "official" start time, but thanks anyway.!
I understand and agree that the introduction of mechanisation had a big impact on prepping time and indoor work.
Increased parcel volume sorting has a lesser impact than the decrease in non mech loose mail.
The main problem is with the increase in outdoor delivery duty spans to accommodate that, and how it is worked out!
IWT may address indoor work capability, but it does not answer the outdoor eliment with the added parcel delivery protocol for example and that puts a lot of unfair workload pressure onto the the many PTs who are only able to work their contracted hours due to other constraints outwith RM. FT staff and managers seem to be oblivious to that simple fact!
Many PTs contracted hours do not always take into account achievable workloads along with their other commitments!
I think we all agree with less indoor work, maintaining full time work has its problems, but with enforced lapsing added to utilise the FT delivery posties hours, it often impacts unfairly on the contracted hours of MANY PTs, in the form of intimidating pressure. Both to appease managers and FT partners in many cases.
Savings made in the form of hour reductions is obvious. To believe working before time, and those minutes add up to hours, has no relevance in the financial operations of RM is deluded. I only wonder why and how they have been so slow in delving into their own management structure? Oh, possibly because the savings made of the backs of over worked posties in employing intimidating managers (with some help from the posties even!) the bonus culture they operate is working in the meantime. A part time workforce is within grasp and once someone realises where bigger savings outwith the celebrated IWT, Geo Route models applied to posties, they may have a look at the current managers they employ under their very own noses, yet are failing to utilise all THEIR paid hours of employment, like those damned posties!
tommyrep
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Post by tommyrep »

Jahpostie wrote:DOs should have a part time union rep, representing part time interests. I suspect most union reps are full time and only give a monkeys about full timer interests and getting home early.
Good point!
I think it's a well known fact, FT colleagues have little or no interest in them or how they get treated. If fact their only wish is that they conform to and with the needs and aspirations of themselves in many instances. " could have done half my walk, waiting on you to come in"! Be a bit more flexible pal! Bla bla, thanks your a good lad!
As for the Rep, well the CWU do not seem to care very much about the PTs plight and their treatment at work tbh.
Protection of FT jobs is their highest priority and the turnover of PT staff may be have a bearing, also the uptake of membership may be a factor within PTs, although I may be wrong.
Last edited by tommyrep on 05 May 2019, 22:45, edited 1 time in total.