No seat belt

Ren Hoëk · Post by **Ren Hoëk** » 14 Apr 2019, 10:19

clashcityrocker wrote:
Ren Hoëk wrote:

They would need a little bit more than " reasonable belief" to make it stick in an employment tribunal.
No they wouldn't.

Yes they would...

Your serve.

Ren Hoëk · Post by **Ren Hoëk** » 14 Apr 2019, 10:21

aiden01 wrote:
Ren Hoëk wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
Ren Hoëk wrote:Deny it. Ask them to prove it. They must have been mistaken because of course you did have your belt on. You care about your own safety. Naturally. You must have taken it off before they noticed.

Regardless of the "facts". If you take the above option and they have no evidence. They have nothing on you.
Wrong and very dangerous advice.

In an employment matter, the business does not need evidence to dismiss, all they need is a reasonable belief, and that the action they take is a reasonable response.

In some cases, if you lie about not wearing the seatbelt, then it can actually increase the chances of you being dismissed because they can use the "loss of trust" argument and use that to dismiss you.

It may seem strange but I would always recommend being honest, even if seems it could end up with you being dismissed. Being honest and truthful can actually tip the balance on what they decide to do.

They would need a little bit more than " reasonable belief" to make it stick in an employment tribunal. But, like someone else has pointed out. They have already admitted guilt. Obviously lying shouldn't be advised but in a situation where they are looking to take your job from you I would hesitate to back myself. I also wouldn't hesitate to wear my seatbelt in the first instance but hey ho.

Manager - You didn't have your seatbelt on.

Me - Yes I did. You must be mistaken. Cya in the morning.
Why did you advise him to lie then when you had obviously read his post before you had given bad advice

That is the course of action I would have taken from the get go. Never admit anything. Make them provide the evidence and do the ground work.

Ciderboy1957 · Post by **Ciderboy1957** » 14 Apr 2019, 10:26

Lads I keep repeating myself , caught , manager came to window of van !!!
So I cannot deny it , so I hold my hands up but gravely concerned he will not look at this in isolation and will use previous attempts to punish me , unsuccessfully by the way, as an opportunity to dismiss ie " no further confidence " comment to rep

Post by **rambo1** » 14 Apr 2019, 18:02

2Shedz wrote:Seat belt

what a joke
Manager moans about no seatbelt.
Put it on and round takes longer.
manager then moans about overtime.

yet again we cant win

Smiffy

You do know it's actually against the law? Never mind what royal mail dismissal policy is. Sorry officer, my manager bartered me down on my overtime estimate so I have no time to put a seatbelt on, simply ain't gonna cut it. Maybe if you'd witnessed what a person thrown through the windscreen looks like, you might put it on and not take lapsing.

leolion855 · Post by **leolion855** » 14 Apr 2019, 18:34

When you don't need to wear a seat belt
You don’t need to wear a seat belt if you’re:

a driver who is reversing, or supervising a learner driver who is reversing
in a vehicle being used for police, fire and rescue services
a passenger in a trade vehicle and you’re investigating a fault
driving a goods vehicle on deliveries that is travelling no more than 50 metres between stops

https://www.gov.uk/seat-belts-law/when- ... -seat-belt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Were you on your last loop near the office by chance?

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 14 Apr 2019, 18:49

leolion855 wrote:When you don't need to wear a seat belt
You don’t need to wear a seat belt if you’re:

And all the rest is irrelevant because RM policy is you wear your seat belt at all times.

cpsteve · Post by **cpsteve** » 14 Apr 2019, 19:38

Very harsh if they followed all delivery drivers you can bet most would have driven with no seat belt on as well as using the pda of course i am not one of them.

jd9442 · Post by **jd9442** » 14 Apr 2019, 21:31

Recently a fellow postie was told by management that police had seen him not wearing a seat belt by a speed camera
Nothings happened yet but Is continuing duties whilst awaiting a letter from police

daveyeff · Post by **daveyeff** » 15 Apr 2019, 19:25

Ren Hoëk wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Even ACAS don't mention "evidence" https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/ ... isconduct/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What will the tribunal consider?
The tribunal can’t find you were unfairly dismissed just because they believe your account of what happened. Before deciding the outcome of the claim for dismissal for misconduct, the tribunal will look at the following legal tests and apply them to your claim. They will want to know:

whether your employer genuinely believed you were guilty of misconduct
was there a proper investigation into what happened?
did your employer have reasonable grounds to think you were guilty?
would your dismissal be considered a reasonable response to the misconduct?
Ok. Il let you believe that a manager and RM could just sack someone because they "believed" you didn't have a seat belt on. No evidence. Just their word against yours. They would come unstuck.

they sacked a bloke in Scotland 2 or 3 years back. for theft. he was searched on his delivery by the I.B. they found nothing. searched his person...his locker...his home....they found NOTHING. he was suspended then sacked. the tribunal ordered RM to give him his job back. RM appealed and went to tribunal again. they LOST again and were ordered to re-instate him. NO was their reply. he lost his job with NO evidence. he was compensated eventually with an undisclosed amount but he STILL lost his job.

Ren Hoëk · Post by **Ren Hoëk** » 15 Apr 2019, 20:19

daveyeff wrote:
Ren Hoëk wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Even ACAS don't mention "evidence" https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/ ... isconduct/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What will the tribunal consider?
The tribunal can’t find you were unfairly dismissed just because they believe your account of what happened. Before deciding the outcome of the claim for dismissal for misconduct, the tribunal will look at the following legal tests and apply them to your claim. They will want to know:

whether your employer genuinely believed you were guilty of misconduct
was there a proper investigation into what happened?
did your employer have reasonable grounds to think you were guilty?
would your dismissal be considered a reasonable response to the misconduct?
Ok. Il let you believe that a manager and RM could just sack someone because they "believed" you didn't have a seat belt on. No evidence. Just their word against yours. They would come unstuck.
they sacked a bloke in Scotland 2 or 3 years back. for theft. he was searched on his delivery by the I.B. they found nothing. searched his person...his locker...his home....they found NOTHING. he was suspended then sacked. the tribunal ordered RM to give him his job back. RM appealed and went to tribunal again. they LOST again and were ordered to re-instate him. NO was their reply. he lost his job with NO evidence. he was compensated eventually with an undisclosed amount but he STILL lost his job.

he was compensated eventually with an undisclosed amount but he STILL lost his job.

It sounds like he was offered a pay off and took it. He didn't lose his job. He walked with compo.

Post by **Navalron** » 15 Apr 2019, 21:20

I'm sure that you had your seatbelt on all the time but just as you passed into the DO/DEPOT, you just unclipped just a second before you were seen. You aren't under the road traffic act in private places. I know it's RM policy to always wear your seatbelt but if they get all overheated about it, then use all the technicalities at your disposal of your job is on the line. And remember to ALWAYS do the job properly, as they say they want in everything, that's seatbelts, meal breaks, lapsing(only if you've time), cutting off, going to neighbours ect ect. There's more than one way to skin a cat. What happened to you scratch my back and I will scratch yours. Yes you should ALWAYS wear your seatbelt but how many times have we all pressed the release button a second or two before the lorry/van comes to a halt. Good luck.

Postie45 · Post by **Postie45** » 15 Apr 2019, 22:10

would be harsh to be sacked for this for 1st time misconduct IMO

Post by **aiden01** » 15 Apr 2019, 23:19

Ren Hoëk wrote:
daveyeff wrote:
Ren Hoëk wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Even ACAS don't mention "evidence" https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/ ... isconduct/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What will the tribunal consider?
The tribunal can’t find you were unfairly dismissed just because they believe your account of what happened. Before deciding the outcome of the claim for dismissal for misconduct, the tribunal will look at the following legal tests and apply them to your claim. They will want to know:

whether your employer genuinely believed you were guilty of misconduct
was there a proper investigation into what happened?
did your employer have reasonable grounds to think you were guilty?
would your dismissal be considered a reasonable response to the misconduct?
Ok. Il let you believe that a manager and RM could just sack someone because they "believed" you didn't have a seat belt on. No evidence. Just their word against yours. They would come unstuck.
they sacked a bloke in Scotland 2 or 3 years back. for theft. he was searched on his delivery by the I.B. they found nothing. searched his person...his locker...his home....they found NOTHING. he was suspended then sacked. the tribunal ordered RM to give him his job back. RM appealed and went to tribunal again. they LOST again and were ordered to re-instate him. NO was their reply. he lost his job with NO evidence. he was compensated eventually with an undisclosed amount but he STILL lost his job.

he was compensated eventually with an undisclosed amount but he STILL lost his job.
It sounds like he was offered a pay off and took it. He didn't lose his job. He walked with compo.

Sorry for language but do you not f***ing listen read the post and read it again he lost lost his job for doing f**k all wrong. TRIBUNAL SAID HE SHOULD BE REINSTATED WHAT POINT ARE YOU MISSING FFS

crimson king · Post by **crimson king** » 15 Apr 2019, 23:33

Navalron wrote:I'm sure that you had your seatbelt on all the time but just as you passed into the DO/DEPOT, you just unclipped just a second before you were seen. You aren't under the road traffic act in private places. I know it's RM policy to always wear your seatbelt but if they get all overheated about it, then use all the technicalities at your disposal of your job is on the line. And remember to ALWAYS do the job properly, as they say they want in everything, that's seatbelts, meal breaks, lapsing(only if you've time), cutting off, going to neighbours ect ect. There's more than one way to skin a cat. What happened to you scratch my back and I will scratch yours. Yes you should ALWAYS wear your seatbelt but how many times have we all pressed the release button a second or two before the lorry/van comes to a halt. Good luck.

Best advice I've seen in this thread.

"Just popped the seat belt as I seen ya boss!"

Although, reading the op, it sounds like the horse might have bolted in this case.

Good luck anyway, hope it works out okay.

Jamie162 · Post by **Jamie162** » 15 Apr 2019, 23:45

We have just had a team brief on wearing seat belts and made to sign to say we attended the brief maybe this is reason they are being so harsh on the incident?