No seat belt

Post by **aiden01** » 12 Apr 2019, 20:13

Ren Hoëk wrote:Deny it. Ask them to prove it. They must have been mistaken because of course you did have your belt on. You care about your own safety. Naturally. You must have taken it off before they noticed.

Regardless of the "facts". If you take the above option and they have no evidence. They have nothing on you.

Going by his post's has already admitted to start lying now would definitely lead to dismissal

Post by **greengiant** » 13 Apr 2019, 07:33

2Shedz wrote:Seat belt

what a joke
Manager moans about no seatbelt.
Put it on and round takes longer.
manager then moans about overtime.

yet again we cant win

Smiffy

Your round takes longer due to the time needed to put seat belt on?

Ciderboy1957 · Post by **Ciderboy1957** » 13 Apr 2019, 07:47

Folks not looking people to make excuses for my irresponsible actions .
As I said guilty !
Just fear I am going to be dismissed and asking does anyone know of same cases as it will definitely come under gross misconduct

poisonivy6 · Post by **poisonivy6** » 13 Apr 2019, 07:56

Surely just a quick " don't do it again " in the ear of the postman from the manager would suffice.
Everyone makes mistakes and in my opinion a decent manager would turn a blind eye to it for at least a first offence , that in turn might mean that the postman in question will return a favour in future ie staying out to clear their walk when they might otherwise not want to etc. It creates a better work enviroment if everyone trys to help each other out.

Ciderboy1957 · Post by **Ciderboy1957** » 13 Apr 2019, 08:47

Doubtful poisonivy6 , the fact that I was sent home for " cooling off " , even though I was perfectly resigned to being caught and calm, says to me conduct is forthcoming , which I understand but in what form , Cheers

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 13 Apr 2019, 11:56

Ren Hoëk wrote:Deny it. Ask them to prove it. They must have been mistaken because of course you did have your belt on. You care about your own safety. Naturally. You must have taken it off before they noticed.

Regardless of the "facts". If you take the above option and they have no evidence. They have nothing on you.

Wrong and very dangerous advice.

In an employment matter, the business does not need evidence to dismiss, all they need is a reasonable belief, and that the action they take is a reasonable response.

In some cases, if you lie about not wearing the seatbelt, then it can actually increase the chances of you being dismissed because they can use the "loss of trust" argument and use that to dismiss you.

It may seem strange but I would always recommend being honest, even if seems it could end up with you being dismissed. Being honest and truthful can actually tip the balance on what they decide to do.

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 13 Apr 2019, 11:59

Ciderboy1957 wrote:Folks not looking people to make excuses for my irresponsible actions .
As I said guilty !
Just fear I am going to be dismissed and asking does anyone know of same cases as it will definitely come under gross misconduct

If its a first offence, and there hasn't been a rash of other drivers being caught, or a WTL brief warning drivers and passengers of the consequences then 1 think a 2 year suspended dismissal is the most likely outcome. Of course, I won't lie, dismissal is still a possibility but if you are being honest, contrite and remorseful then it will help in my opinion.

Ren Hoëk · Post by **Ren Hoëk** » 13 Apr 2019, 14:16

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
Ren Hoëk wrote:Deny it. Ask them to prove it. They must have been mistaken because of course you did have your belt on. You care about your own safety. Naturally. You must have taken it off before they noticed.

Regardless of the "facts". If you take the above option and they have no evidence. They have nothing on you.
Wrong and very dangerous advice.

In an employment matter, the business does not need evidence to dismiss, all they need is a reasonable belief, and that the action they take is a reasonable response.

In some cases, if you lie about not wearing the seatbelt, then it can actually increase the chances of you being dismissed because they can use the "loss of trust" argument and use that to dismiss you.

It may seem strange but I would always recommend being honest, even if seems it could end up with you being dismissed. Being honest and truthful can actually tip the balance on what they decide to do.

They would need a little bit more than " reasonable belief" to make it stick in an employment tribunal. But, like someone else has pointed out. They have already admitted guilt. Obviously lying shouldn't be advised but in a situation where they are looking to take your job from you I would hesitate to back myself. I also wouldn't hesitate to wear my seatbelt in the first instance but hey ho.

Manager - You didn't have your seatbelt on.

Me - Yes I did. You must be mistaken. Cya in the morning.

Post by **aiden01** » 13 Apr 2019, 20:07

Ren Hoëk wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
Ren Hoëk wrote:Deny it. Ask them to prove it. They must have been mistaken because of course you did have your belt on. You care about your own safety. Naturally. You must have taken it off before they noticed.

Regardless of the "facts". If you take the above option and they have no evidence. They have nothing on you.
Wrong and very dangerous advice.

In an employment matter, the business does not need evidence to dismiss, all they need is a reasonable belief, and that the action they take is a reasonable response.

In some cases, if you lie about not wearing the seatbelt, then it can actually increase the chances of you being dismissed because they can use the "loss of trust" argument and use that to dismiss you.

It may seem strange but I would always recommend being honest, even if seems it could end up with you being dismissed. Being honest and truthful can actually tip the balance on what they decide to do.

They would need a little bit more than " reasonable belief" to make it stick in an employment tribunal. But, like someone else has pointed out. They have already admitted guilt. Obviously lying shouldn't be advised but in a situation where they are looking to take your job from you I would hesitate to back myself. I also wouldn't hesitate to wear my seatbelt in the first instance but hey ho.

Manager - You didn't have your seatbelt on.

Me - Yes I did. You must be mistaken. Cya in the morning.

Why did you advise him to lie then when you had obviously read his post before you had given bad advice

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 14 Apr 2019, 07:38

Ren Hoëk wrote:

They would need a little bit more than " reasonable belief" to make it stick in an employment tribunal.

No they wouldn't.

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 14 Apr 2019, 07:41

Even ACAS don't mention "evidence" https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/ ... isconduct/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What will the tribunal consider?
The tribunal can’t find you were unfairly dismissed just because they believe your account of what happened. Before deciding the outcome of the claim for dismissal for misconduct, the tribunal will look at the following legal tests and apply them to your claim. They will want to know:

whether your employer genuinely believed you were guilty of misconduct
was there a proper investigation into what happened?
did your employer have reasonable grounds to think you were guilty?
would your dismissal be considered a reasonable response to the misconduct?

Ciderboy1957 · Post by **Ciderboy1957** » 14 Apr 2019, 08:23

Lads as I already stated I can't defend the indefensible , I was wrong and caught .
I wouldn't even consider a tribunal .my conduct is clear albeit they have attempted to pin things on me in the past and have failed .
Manager as already stated to area rep that they are of opinion that " they have no confidence in me doing my job" after 38years service , which imo sounds ominous !

Ringer21 · Post by **Ringer21** » 14 Apr 2019, 09:27

I hope your office is ready for a strike to back you up if they sack you after 38 years service for not wearing a seat belt it's disgusting

luddite · Post by **luddite** » 14 Apr 2019, 09:32

Shocking! 38yrs service and they even consider dismissal for a mistake! We have blokes turn up in the morning stinking if drink ffs!

Ren Hoëk · Post by **Ren Hoëk** » 14 Apr 2019, 10:18

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Even ACAS don't mention "evidence" https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/ ... isconduct/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What will the tribunal consider?
The tribunal can’t find you were unfairly dismissed just because they believe your account of what happened. Before deciding the outcome of the claim for dismissal for misconduct, the tribunal will look at the following legal tests and apply them to your claim. They will want to know:

whether your employer genuinely believed you were guilty of misconduct
was there a proper investigation into what happened?
did your employer have reasonable grounds to think you were guilty?
would your dismissal be considered a reasonable response to the misconduct?

Ok. Il let you believe that a manager and RM could just sack someone because they "believed" you didn't have a seat belt on. No evidence. Just their word against yours. They would come unstuck.