Seniority is a Joke

[arnold cheshire]

Hi delete my account this has become a joke

[scoobydo79]

Postie45 is correct.The senior guys haven’t always been senior.They have earnt it.They had to float when they first started.They had to go into rotates (remember them?) including nights and lates.They will also be the same guys that fought for the conditions people enjoy in Royal Mail today.

[Murdoch]

Define "Performance".

It's not difficult to judge performance. Not an exhaustive list, but some criteria I'd use to judge performance would include:

Valid Customer Complaints
Blameworthy Road Traffic Accidents
Vehicle Tracker Scores
Attendance (including lateness)
Scan failures (tracked / collections etc)
Missorts and mistakenly delivered mail
Redirection mistakes / failures

I mean, in any other company these sorts of things would matter when people get the opportunity of different contracts or roles etc.

Like I said, it's a fairly archaic way to operate, I think mainly due to the legacy of it being a fairly well unionised public service.

For those that hate the idea of any other criteria being used to make those sorts of decisions... what are your arguments against that?

Is it that Royal Mail simply can't operate like a normal business? And that seniority is the only fair way, because any "choice" would just enable managers to pick their favourites?

[aiden01]

So your moaning about seniority but want an extra years seniority if you've been lucky enough not to be ill and attained 90% attendance.

No I want to be rewarded for working 5 days a week all year. As for the not lucky enough to be ill, well there is a significant percentage in my office that take months off and there is nothing wrong with them because they told me what they were doing. This I believe is very common in Royal mail, I mean come on you get full pay and Royal mail can do very little because the union protect you. Anyway, it is not about punishing people on the sick, I am suggesting an incentive for people who come in and work.

I also work 5 days a week every year and get rewarded with a half decent wage every week

[Woody Guthrie]

The only objective differential measure is length of service.
Measures like performance or flexibility or capability are subjective.
Measures like hours worked potentially discriminate directly or indirectly on grounds of disability or gender.

Seniority is actually there to protect management from accusations of favouritism and/or unlawful practices. It is not a joke but a serious business tool.

It's use is limited to the allocation of specific non-specialist duties, these duties are supposed to be as equal as is possible.
The fact that they might not be as equal as is possible is not a failure in seniority but a failure in the revision process.

To answer your point Murdoch all of your measures would surely be affected by whether you drive, how many delivery points you have, how many days a week you work, who prepped your duty and in the case of attendance....disability.

[Murdoch]

The only objective differential measure is length of service.
Measures like performance or flexibility or capability are subjective.
Measures like hours worked potentially discriminate directly or indirectly on grounds of disability or gender.

Seniority is actually there to protect management from accusations of favouritism and/or unlawful practices. It is not a joke but a serious business tool.

It's use is limited to the allocation of specific non-specialist duties, these duties are supposed to be as equal as is possible.
The fact that they might not be as equal as is possible is not a failure in seniority but a failure in the revision process.

To answer your point Murdoch all of your measures would surely be affected by whether you drive, how many delivery points you have, how many days a week you work, who prepped your duty and in the case of attendance....disability.

I think that's the crux of the issue. Most other places would allow managers to make an informed decision, based on a number of different factors.

Whereas within Royal Mail, it could only work with a completely objective measure. Because any "choice" even a fair and informed one, would just create so much problems.

To be honest, I don't really mind, I think both ways have their issues.

I may or may not just like to put forth a counter position for the sake of debate.

[rubberbond]

How on earth do you get signed off for 6 months? I'm surprised, I know a lot of GP's dislike Royal Mail practices when it comes to having their professional opinion disregarded or challenged, as to whether a person is fit for work, but signing off for 6 months? Can't believe that,surely RM would try and get you back to work, in some capacity, that's what they seem to want to do , although in some circumstances it seems justified

[aiden01]

How on earth do you get signed off for 6 months? I'm surprised, I know a lot of GP's dislike Royal Mail practices when it comes to having their professional opinion disregarded or challenged, as to whether a person is fit for work, but signing off for 6 months? Can't believe that,surely RM would try and get you back to work, in some capacity, that's what they seem to want to do , although in some circumstances it seems justified

Seems the norm now after 4weeks off in mc i work in they ring you an offer ihr.

[kookoo32]

You could join as a reserve on shitty exploitative part-time contract, learn loads of rounds, be completely flexible, cover sickness late notice, never get a Saturday off. Work well beyond your exploitative contracted hours. Never receive a complaint, do everything properly to a high standard, always complete on time.

But, that counts for literally nothing.

The only thing that matters is how long you've been there.

You think people who started 20+ years ago got assigned the best delivery in the office when starting ?

Those of us with seniority have ALL done our time of doing the crap walks, getting the crap overtime, being a reserve and being shifted 2-3 times in a morning, those of us that stuck around for YEARS of this eventually are rewarded for that. If you decided to show loyalty to RM and stick around through the crap you too can benefit for seniority, in the mean time pipe down and grind through like those of us with longer seniority have done. I never dreamed of complaining about this even when i was new because I recognised people have earned the right to "easier" deliveries and at some point i`d be given the same perk. People want everything handed to them on a plate these days, earn your seniority and then you will deserve it.

Absolutely spot on. I started on 22 hours a week all those years ago. I remember some mornings I'd be moved around 3 or 4 times - framing up each duty. Or the times when I'd just started out on my delivery and my manager came and got me to move me onto another duty. I was given the worst duties in the office. Every day I'd be on a different round. It took me 10 years to get up to 33 hours a week and my own duty but I stuck at it. I'm now at 20+ years and still have nowhere near the easiest duty in the office but I don't grudge those senior to me that have.

[Coinbags]

Gotta admit, it's a fairly archaic system. Rewarding people for being around a long time, should not be the only criteria used. Performance reviews should be factored in to the equation.

Length of service matters to an extent, sure. No other company operates in a manner where its the only consideration.

RM needs to move with the times.

Totally Agree Seniority is B*llshit
Too many slackers in Royal Mail get the easiest duties
Need proper management - proper performance reviews.
Just because they've been in the job longest think they have some kind of divine right to an easy life whilst the newer recruits do all the graft.
Hopefully one day RM will get in decent management to stand up to the Union and get rid of this utter farce of a system

[Coinbags]

Postie45 is correct.The senior guys haven’t always been senior.They have earnt it.They had to float when they first started.They had to go into rotates (remember them?) including nights and lates.They will also be the same guys that fought for the conditions people enjoy in Royal Mail today.

There you go - you have earned an easier life - utter bollox.

Makes my piss boil

[Sir Henry]

Seniority for all,it's faults is transparent. Anything else is open to abuse by management and lickspittles.

[Decky Boy]

Postie45 is correct.The senior guys haven’t always been senior.They have earnt it.They had to float when they first started.They had to go into rotates (remember them?) including nights and lates.They will also be the same guys that fought for the conditions people enjoy in Royal Mail today.

There you go - you have earned an easier life - utter bollox.

Makes my piss boil

Get your head down son... and put in the mileage ! You'll not get the respect or recognition you desire spouting pish ! Seniority has to be earned and arrives after many long hard days out on delivery AND in the office. If you feel the duties in your office are unfair YOU can fix this at the next revision.

[redneck]

Seniority necessary in Royal Fail because 'Performance' will always be based on how early you come in, how much o/t you claim, how much time you spend hanging around lino office.

It is the only way of avoiding giving over complete control of appointments to a lazy and corrupt management

[Woody Guthrie]

There you go - you have earned an easier life

You've earned a higher pick of the duties that's all.

It's only an easier life if the duties are unevenly balanced and if they are...that's the fault of the entire office.
When it comes to accepting shite every voice is as loud as the next one, senior, junior, part-time or full-time.