SO THEY VOTED NO TO DEFEND US DID THEY??

[goinpostal]

Lovejoy was absolutely right to post that up if it is true, can anyone verify it? What do the BBC workers do, is it a mailroom?

Its great Dave Warren is on board for a no vote but we need to develop a rank and file movement that is independent from the trade union bureaucracy left or right: with them when they fight for what workers needs, without them when they don't. That means we don't just uncritically and automatically support him because he has called for a No vote and agreed, quite rightly, to back the campaign to reject the deal.

To take another example, Jane Loftus on the PEC and in the SWP, stands as a left etc, but while she rightly voted against the deal on the PEC she hasn't come out and campaigned against it, which we should criticise as betraying her duty as a lef leader. To hell with her career, come out and lead, that's why we elect such people.

While we should campaign for a vote for them, we should do so while criticising their past failures and warn workers of the danger that they will wobble again in the future, so that we create a rank and file movement that is independent of the leftwing of the bureaucracy in reality, not just in words. Such a movement needs to stand on its own two feet - the members and reps - instead of relying on and leaning on such leaders, so that when they defect, it doens't fall down like in the 1970's.

Did Dave W and Jane L campaign against the 2006 Efficiency Agreement, which banned strikes over cuts? Nope. So we need to hold such people to account.

Dave Warren could argue to the BBC workers, let's not settle any issues separately but stay out and fight together, and make the BBC workers part of a final settlement, while making it clear that it was up to the workers to make the decision and it might be an uphill battle to force the CWU bureaucracy to link the struggles, as supposedly they did with POL and RM. If the workers voted for it, then its on them, he offered.

Obviously this raises a problem. Left bureaucrats like Warren and Loftus don't campaign to build rank and file organisation at all (Warren, that i am aware of) or consistently (Loftus), so they get to the crunch time - a strike, a sacking, a pay deal like the ones the BBC workers face - and it is difficult to win such arguments.

That is why we need a No Vote campaign now to reject the deal and win the strike, but to build out of it a rank and file movement, so when we struggle in the future there is a different balance of forces in the union. That would change the calculations of what is possible to achieve in any given situation. The BBC workers might see alternatives to just signing up to a sub-inflation pay rise because it was the only "realistic" offer.

[Big Daz]

I was once a member of the GMB(ATU) as it was then known, this was prior to the privatisation of the ESI and they weren't the only negotiating union nor the most powerful, but they were the largest - you can take my word for it or not, but they sold out their members just to be sitting at the table. I left on privatisation but I still speak to members who remained - those few who are left.

This deal smacks very much of those times but with the CWU instead and this is before privatisation rears its head for our members, but I think it's coming and not too distant. You have to ask yourself as a member of a union if it is enough to be represented at the top table if your representative is only there to pass the condiments.

Privatisation has been ruled out by John Hutton when he appered before the trade and industry select committee last month. He also implied that liberalising before europe was a mistake.

[Renegade]

Hey Love Joy
What incident with the GMB was well documented and where did the leaflets come from... tell me more mate and who is your area rep, they seem to be well informed, wouldn't mind chatting to him/her!

[kill Joy]

Concerns over GMB in NI are well founded. From my memory of a conference a few years ago the issue was around 2 former members of this union who went to work for GMB one male one female, the name Billy Buchanan rings a bell. They then started to stir the s**t and recruited a few disaffected members. I expect this is where the scabing came from. The criticism of the GMB on this issue is spot on, that doesn't mean the GMB are all crap. I expect there was a lot of sectarian sh*t going down which is exactly what they dont need. Lets hope Pat o'hara's gettin it sorted.

On the BBC mailroom my source confirms what has been said with warrens vote for a 2.5% increase, i also understand that some who voted for the RM deal voted against. Feckin strange if you ask me, but we weren't there so who knows?

I dont have a particular prolem with the way warren or anyone else votes provided it is honest and consistant with there actions. I have posted facts on the PEC unanimously voting on a document that stated that the the RM Pay increase was acceptable. If you want details see my post on PEC Revalations under the Pay & Modernisation Forum. Have alook and make your own mind up.

Please remember none of us can make an informed view without the facts so lets not slate those who provide it.

[geopip]

Concerns over GMB in NI are well founded. From my memory of a conference a few years ago the issue was around 2 former members of this union who went to work for GMB one male one female, the name Billy Buchanan rings a bell. They then started to stir the s**t and recruited a few disaffected members. I expect this is where the scabing came from. The criticism of the GMB on this issue is spot on, that doesn't mean the GMB are all crap. I expect there was a lot of sectarian sh*t going down which is exactly what they dont need. Lets hope Pat o'hara's gettin it sorted.

On the BBC mailroom my source confirms what has been said with warrens vote for a 2.5% increase, i also understand that some who voted for the RM deal voted against. Feckin strange if you ask me, but we weren't there so who knows?

I dont have a particular prolem with the way warren or anyone else votes provided it is honest and consistant with there actions. I have posted facts on the PEC unanimously voting on a document that stated that the the RM Pay increase was acceptable. If you want details see my post on PEC Revalations under the Pay & Modernisation Forum. Have alook and make your own mind up.

Please remember none of us can make an informed view without the facts so lets not slate those who provide it.

I don't quite see your point on Dave Warren voting for 2.5% pay increase for BBC mailroom workers I don't believe Dave took his stance on the Royal Mail deal solely on pay it’s the strings attached that worry him and should worry us.
Yet you seem to be trying to cast aspersions on him because he voted against the RM agreement and has come out and spoke publicly a brave thing no matter how you view it, the CWU HQ barons mercers Ward, Hayes, Candy, Colbett, Sampson and Slocombe won’t make life easy for him in the future. It is very strange that those really influencing and running the Union with the exception Ward and Hayes are unelected employees of the Union and not the National Officers we elect.

[kill Joy]

Concerns over GMB in NI are well founded. From my memory of a conference a few years ago the issue was around 2 former members of this union who went to work for GMB one male one female, the name Billy Buchanan rings a bell. They then started to stir the s**t and recruited a few disaffected members. I expect this is where the scabing came from. The criticism of the GMB on this issue is spot on, that doesn't mean the GMB are all crap. I expect there was a lot of sectarian sh*t going down which is exactly what they dont need. Lets hope Pat o'hara's gettin it sorted.

On the BBC mailroom my source confirms what has been said with warrens vote for a 2.5% increase, i also understand that some who voted for the RM deal voted against. Feckin strange if you ask me, but we weren't there so who knows?

I dont have a particular prolem with the way warren or anyone else votes provided it is honest and consistant with there actions. I have posted facts on the PEC unanimously voting on a document that stated that the the RM Pay increase was acceptable. If you want details see my post on PEC Revalations under the Pay & Modernisation Forum. Have alook and make your own mind up.

Please remember none of us can make an informed view without the facts so lets not slate those who provide it.

I don't quite see your point on Dave Warren voting for 2.5% pay increase for BBC mailroom workers I don't believe Dave took his stance on the Royal Mail deal solely on pay it’s the strings attached that worry him and should worry us.
Yet you seem to be trying to cast aspersions on him because he voted against the RM agreement and has come out and spoke publicly a brave thing no matter how you view it, the CWU HQ barons mercers Ward, Hayes, Candy, Colbett, Sampson and Slocombe won’t make life easy for him in the future. It is very strange that those really influencing and running the Union with the exception Ward and Hayes are unelected employees of the Union and not the National Officers we elect.

You are right that Dave's opposition was not just about pay but he cited the "well below inflation" pay offer (Socialist Worker 27th October) as one of "the key reasons why I voted against the deal". These are Dave's words not mine. My point is simple if this was a key reason why didn't he attemt to rectify this when he had the chance on the 11th October either by moving an amendment or voting against the paper that said the pay was enough - he didn't he voted for it. If his propoganda had stated pay wasn't the issue it was the strings then fair enough you would have had no arguement from me. Everyone has there right to an opinion its the honesty and integity of what people are saying that Iam questioning.

[Renegade]

Kill Joy, Love Joy, me thinks your one in the same. By the way I also think you're Irish, what say You?

[lovejoy]

Kill Joy, Love Joy, me thinks your one in the same. By the way I also think you're Irish, what say You?

Definately not the same. I think he semi-nicked my name

I'm not Irish! Not sure about him though!!

[Renegade]

Hey Love Joy, are u Noel McLean dude?

[lovejoy]

Hey Love Joy, are u Noel McLean dude?

Ha afraid not mate! Although we had Noel to one of our branch meetings and I think he is top man!!

[Renegade]

Alright Noel M8?

[lovejoy]

Alright Noel M8?

Have you lost the plot?? What makes you think that?

Sorry mate but you are wide of the mark!

[irishstaff]

Lovejoy hows AUNT PEGGY KEEPING M8

[lovejoy]

Lovejoy hows AUNT PEGGY KEEPING M8

What the f*** are you pair on about??

I'm off to bed to get some much needed sleep ahead of shift tom! have a word with your dodgy sources guys.

They're giving you Irish boys a bad name!!

[irishstaff]

Lovejoy cant beleive you where that silly to be caught rkid.........you wont be getting my vote for the PEC in your own words "Nail his balls to the Albert Clock"