GHOST OVERTIME AND MANAGERS

[Chalky13]

Fact is, we all know ghosting goes on because of 1. Managers needing all the walks to clear and 2. Greedy postie's. There are some postie's doing early ips for an hour...so they maybe do half an hour of ips but spent the other 30 minutes putting their mech in....could this be fraud methinks??? The gaffer doesn't know because they never come in that early,but they know what's going on and turn a blind eye on the assumption that the postie came in even earlier unpaid to get their mech in.

Until royal mail managers take greater accountability for their budgets they will never be truly run efficiently and fairly. Pda actuals is the tip of a very big iceberg and they know it will create a lot of emotions in the conversation over fairer deliveries.

And that’s it, in a nutshell

[steve1873]

From the code of business standards..

We expect you to protect our property and assets.
Don’t use our assets for your personal benefit or
the benefit of anyone other than the company.

You must:
• not claim money from the company for hours you did
not work;

• not claim money for a journey you did not make;

• not claim an expense you did not legitimately have
to pay; or

• not use inside information about a company transaction
for personal profit.

All the above are unacceptable and may be treated as gross
misconduct, which could result in your dismissal. If theft or
fraud is involved, we may prosecute.

So a manager says " can you take out these extra loops please? I have no-one to do them... - I will pay you an extra 40 minutes " . Postie agrees and the details are put onto the OT sheet.

Postie finishes and leaves work 20 minutes after his normal finish time. Are you saying the postie has 'stolen' 20 minutes from RM and is liable for dismissal ?

If this is the case, then most people doing SAs are also falling foul of this if they have claimed 2 hours on a job only taking 1hr 30m.

The managers offer the OT, the alternative is it doesn't get delivered !

SA is a different matter. You are entitled to that. Ad hoc overtime you have to claim the hours/ minutes worked.

[steve1873]

So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

Well done for being efficient and doing it quicker. However, the expectation is on YOU to declare this and adjust down the overtime claim. Failure to do so is gross misconduct.

[citypostie]

From the code of business standards..

We expect you to protect our property and assets.
Don’t use our assets for your personal benefit or
the benefit of anyone other than the company.

You must:
• not claim money from the company for hours you did
not work;

• not claim money for a journey you did not make;

• not claim an expense you did not legitimately have
to pay; or

• not use inside information about a company transaction
for personal profit.

All the above are unacceptable and may be treated as gross
misconduct, which could result in your dismissal. If theft or
fraud is involved, we may prosecute.

So a manager says " can you take out these extra loops please? I have no-one to do them... - I will pay you an extra 40 minutes " . Postie agrees and the details are put onto the OT sheet.

Postie finishes and leaves work 20 minutes after his normal finish time. Are you saying the postie has 'stolen' 20 minutes from RM and is liable for dismissal ?

If this is the case, then most people doing SAs are also falling foul of this if they have claimed 2 hours on a job only taking 1hr 30m.

The managers offer the OT, the alternative is it doesn't get delivered !

SA is a different matter. You are entitled to that. Ad hoc overtime you have to claim the hours/ minutes worked.

It shouldn't be! Work all paid hours except if you've got a cushy little SA then if you gain an hour that's fine! Is that what the official line is on that?

[Chalky13]

So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

Well done for being efficient and doing it quicker. However, the expectation is on YOU to declare this and adjust down the overtime claim. Failure to do so is gross misconduct.

If it’s gross misconduct then practically the whole of the office could be sacked...

[steve1873]

So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

Well done for being efficient and doing it quicker. However, the expectation is on YOU to declare this and adjust down the overtime claim. Failure to do so is gross misconduct.

If it’s gross misconduct then practically the whole of the office could be sacked...

There's no IF about it.

[aiden01]

So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

Well done for being efficient and doing it quicker. However, the expectation is on YOU to declare this and adjust down the overtime claim. Failure to do so is gross misconduct.

If it’s gross misconduct then practically the whole of the office could be sacked...

There's no IF about it.

Explain the difference about sa then and why is it different.

[steve1873]

So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

Well done for being efficient and doing it quicker. However, the expectation is on YOU to declare this and adjust down the overtime claim. Failure to do so is gross misconduct.

If it’s gross misconduct then practically the whole of the office could be sacked...

There's no IF about it.

Explain the difference about sa then and why is it different.

SA is contractual. The overtime is pre-agreed on a scheduled basis. If you turn up for your SA and there happens to be no work for you (for whatever reason) and you are sent home, you are still entitled to the payment for the SA. Ad hoc overtime is different. Hence the name, ad hoc.

[citypostie]

So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

Well done for being efficient and doing it quicker. However, the expectation is on YOU to declare this and adjust down the overtime claim. Failure to do so is gross misconduct.

If it’s gross misconduct then practically the whole of the office could be sacked...

There's no IF about it.

Explain the difference about sa then and why is it different.

SA is contractual. The overtime is pre-agreed on a scheduled basis. If you turn up for your SA and there happens to be no work for you (for whatever reason) and you are sent home, you are still entitled to the payment for the SA. Ad hoc overtime is different. Hence the name, ad hoc.

But then using the mantra that all hours paid are worked, if someone turns up for sa and theres no work they should be given something else to do or if they do the sa in less time they should do other work to fill that time up, if not what's the difference between getting a flyer on sa or getting one on your normal days contracted hours?

[clashcityrocker]

Stop quoting the whole thread.

[gimba]

Stop quoting the whole thread.

Quote if you agree

[citypostie]

Stop quoting the whole thread.

No

[Woody Guthrie]

SA is a separate contract between the employee and the employer.

It is what's called a quid pro quo agreement (something for something) and the something we get is guaranteed hours no matter whether there's work there or not. The something they get is an obligation to make yourself available for those hours.

[Chalky13]

There's no IF about it.

So why’s it not stopped? Managers not sacked for allowing it? Posties sacked for doing it? You realise a fraction of the work would get done without it, right? Does no-one in your office do overtime walks quicker than they are paid?
In the real world, on that basis, your working day must start at 6:42 and finish at 2:30 every day (assuming hours...)

[Woody Guthrie]

There is still in this business an archaic attitude that we are entitled to something for nothing.
It won't always be that way.
There will be a transition period where depending on your office you might still get away with it while others don't. That's why we have different opinions on here but given the investment in the technology designed to monitor hours worked what will happen is that it will get harder to hide these practices at office level. Eventually it won't be worth the hassle and risk for management.