yeah, lets throw those machines away that take people from one country to another, give someone a job just throwing them into the english channel . and throw the machine away that lets people communicate instantly without having to post a letter and wait a week until it arrives !!! ooopps !!!DirtyHarry wrote:I'm a Luddite, I'm against any sort of machinary that deprives people of jobs.Spedley wrote:Automation is a good thing. I can't understand anyone who thinks differently.
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davidessex
- Posts: 119
- Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 15:10
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semacsorter
- MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
- Posts: 97
- Joined: 07 Aug 2007, 17:24
- Location: essex
[quote="Tinman
I didn't mean the CWU were Luddite-ish (if there is such a word) in thier principles or direction, but more that instead of recognising the future prosperity of RM is down to automation, they have consistently fudged and f***ed up various issues over the last twenty five years in an effort (presumably) to ensure members jobs and perks at all costs.
"Good" some will say "that's what they're there for" and to a point that's true, but when you see the incompetent, the willful, the bone-idle and wanna-be saboteur running £2 million machines on a daily basis as I do, you start to think something's wrong somewhere.
ahh you work in a mail centre then
Would Ford (for instance) allow cars off the assembly line with poor paint jobs with the excuse that "ah yeah, but the paint sprayer's the most senior so we have to use him" or "no-one else wants the job, so he had it" or best of all, "he wants to come off this duty, so he's doing a crap job so they take him off".
And that is life in a modern-day mail centre; weak crap ex-postie Boggins turn management, part-time staff who couldn't give a toss, and a backward-looking union.
Shame, as the staff are generally top-notch and deserve more.[/quote]
Im not a great believer in seniority ( ok i wait for the slagging) although i am full time because of my seniority i know i am also an IMP operator and i know off a lot of part time operators who run the machines more effectivley than some senior people, who are crying out for full time jobs ( a thing of the past ) so dont tar all part timers with the same brush !!
on the automation side it dosent matter how much machinery we have there willl always be manual mail not that we see that at xmas!! and untill they find a machine that walks most guys are safe !! our centre turns out over a million items a night and still struggles if they then expect us to walk sequence it im afraid it just aint going to happen and thats a physical impossibility and on casuals comming in to help i think its a great idea !!! we get more time sorting out there mistakes and missorts than they save so keep it up !!!
every cloud they say !
I didn't mean the CWU were Luddite-ish (if there is such a word) in thier principles or direction, but more that instead of recognising the future prosperity of RM is down to automation, they have consistently fudged and f***ed up various issues over the last twenty five years in an effort (presumably) to ensure members jobs and perks at all costs.
"Good" some will say "that's what they're there for" and to a point that's true, but when you see the incompetent, the willful, the bone-idle and wanna-be saboteur running £2 million machines on a daily basis as I do, you start to think something's wrong somewhere.
ahh you work in a mail centre then
Would Ford (for instance) allow cars off the assembly line with poor paint jobs with the excuse that "ah yeah, but the paint sprayer's the most senior so we have to use him" or "no-one else wants the job, so he had it" or best of all, "he wants to come off this duty, so he's doing a crap job so they take him off".
And that is life in a modern-day mail centre; weak crap ex-postie Boggins turn management, part-time staff who couldn't give a toss, and a backward-looking union.
Shame, as the staff are generally top-notch and deserve more.[/quote]
Im not a great believer in seniority ( ok i wait for the slagging) although i am full time because of my seniority i know i am also an IMP operator and i know off a lot of part time operators who run the machines more effectivley than some senior people, who are crying out for full time jobs ( a thing of the past ) so dont tar all part timers with the same brush !!
on the automation side it dosent matter how much machinery we have there willl always be manual mail not that we see that at xmas!! and untill they find a machine that walks most guys are safe !! our centre turns out over a million items a night and still struggles if they then expect us to walk sequence it im afraid it just aint going to happen and thats a physical impossibility and on casuals comming in to help i think its a great idea !!! we get more time sorting out there mistakes and missorts than they save so keep it up !!!
every cloud they say !
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Tman
- Posts: 4135
- Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 09:57
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Tman
- Posts: 4135
- Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 09:57
No indeed, but some young kid on a 20 hour a week contract making his money up by O/T on an as-and-when basis, must be hard to motivate, especially when he looks around and sees some of the full-time employees.......Im not a great believer in seniority ( ok i wait for the slagging) although i am full time because of my seniority i know i am also an IMP operator and i know off a lot of part time operators who run the machines more effectivley than some senior people, who are crying out for full time jobs ( a thing of the past ) so dont tar all part timers with the same brush !!
And that's my point. Dely posties jobs are safe forever more, so why hasn't the union tried to negotiate a better deal for them bearing in my mind the impact automation's had over the last twenty years?on the automation side it dosent matter how much machinery we have there willl always be manual mail not that we see that at xmas!! and untill they find a machine that walks most guys are safe !!
Most WSMs are going in the larger DOs, and night-shifts etc will be started/continued. As you say, most APCs are fully employed now and have no spare capacity.our centre turns out over a million items a night and still struggles if they then expect us to walk sequence it im afraid it just aint going to happen and thats a physical impossibility
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DirtyHarry
- Posts: 5051
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- Gender: Male
- Location: London
I see nobody picked up on my comment about decent jobs being as rare as a snowflake in August, or words to that effect, and how the situation might
look in about 10 years from now.
So, how do governments in the future, manage to control the unrest that will arise as a result of too many people being thrown on the scrapheap, because
it's cheaper for bosses to install machinary capable of doing what human beings had to do in order to earn a wage?
Answers on a postcard to:
Mr.A Luddite,
c/o Royalmailchat,
Cyberspace.
look in about 10 years from now.
So, how do governments in the future, manage to control the unrest that will arise as a result of too many people being thrown on the scrapheap, because
it's cheaper for bosses to install machinary capable of doing what human beings had to do in order to earn a wage?
Answers on a postcard to:
Mr.A Luddite,
c/o Royalmailchat,
Cyberspace.
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Tman
- Posts: 4135
- Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 09:57
["DirtyHarry"]I see nobody picked up on my comment about decent jobs being as rare as a snowflake in August, or words to that effect, and how the situation might
look in about 10 years from now.
I didn't reply because I don't agree. There's more/ better jobs available now than there ever has been for us working class oiks.
Who knows, but one thing's for sure and that is you can't halt progress and if that means automation then so be it.So, how do governments in the future, manage to control the unrest that will arise as a result of too many people being thrown on the scrapheap, because
it's cheaper for bosses to install machinary capable of doing what human beings had to do in order to earn a wage?
How "surpluses" are handled isn't the concern of the designers and manufacturers.
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IWW Fellow Worker
- Posts: 3644
- Joined: 30 May 2007, 14:27
- Gender: Male
Well said Harry. These people who use the name of Ned Ludd as an insult haven't a clue what they're on about. As for automation, in a propely run society it would be used to reduce working hours with no loss of pay rather than a way of throwing thousands of people onto the scrap heap as it is under the present system.DirtyHarry wrote:I'm a Luddite, I'm against any sort of machinary that deprives people of jobs.
The Industrial Workers of the World. The union whose members never scab!
"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common."
"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common."
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Tman
- Posts: 4135
- Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 09:57
[/quote][As for automation, in a propely run society it would be used to reduce working hours with no loss of pay rather than a way of throwing thousands of people onto the scrap heap as it is under the present system.
Nice idea, and one which was tossed around for years, but unfortunately ultimately doomed to fail as the price/cost of the end-product is in direct proportion to the effort required in it's manufacture, and if that cost is equivalent to the same product being hand-produced, then the cost is too high and the product unsaleable.
How could any of us mere RM workers afford a car were they still hand-made in West Midlands workshops?
How many workers would then be employed in the car industry if there wasn't mass production? In this scenario automation hasn't thrown anyone on the scrap heap, but has generated jobs through a lowering of the unit price to an affordable level.
Automation ultimately reduces unit costs, and if in some way it doesn't, then it's pointless.
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IWW Fellow Worker
- Posts: 3644
- Joined: 30 May 2007, 14:27
- Gender: Male
So you are quite hapy to work a forty hour week instead of the thirty hour week which would be possible if society wasn't run on behalf of priveleged parasites and others in the Adam and Allan mould. Automation should be a boon to society, but under the system you champion, it will never be so.
The Industrial Workers of the World. The union whose members never scab!
"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common."
"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common."
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Tman
- Posts: 4135
- Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 09:57
.IWW Fellow Worker"]So you are quite hapy to work a forty hour week instead of the thirty hour week which would be possible if society wasn't run on behalf of priveleged parasites and others in the Adam and Allan mould
That's both an incredible leap in logic, and an unproveable assertion. I didn't say I was necessarily "happy" with any of it, but I AM realistic enough to see that that is how the system is.
I AM happy to own a car, washing machine, TV, etc etc produced by machines though, and I AM also happy that my fellow workers have been employed to make said products.
.Automation should be a boon to society, but under the system you champion, it will never be so
I don't "champion" it (nice RM manager's word there) but I have to recognise it's existence, although I think it has been the biggest boon to society.
Where would we be without transport, medecine, drugs, housing, communications etc all of which are or contain mass-produced components?
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DirtyHarry
- Posts: 5051
- Joined: 13 May 2007, 23:16
- Gender: Male
- Location: London
Tman wrote:["DirtyHarry"]I see nobody picked up on my comment about decent jobs being as rare as a snowflake in August, or words to that effect, and how the situation might
look in about 10 years from now.
I didn't reply because I don't agree. There's more/ better jobs available now than there ever has been for us working class oiks.
Who knows, but one thing's for sure and that is you can't halt progress and if that means automation then so be it.So, how do governments in the future, manage to control the unrest that will arise as a result of too many people being thrown on the scrapheap, because
it's cheaper for bosses to install machinery capable of doing what human beings had to do in order to earn a wage?
How "surpluses" are handled isn't the concern of the designers and manufacturers.
1. That there's more, better jobs, for the working classes is a fallacy. We are no longer an industrial nation, industries that once employed people in the thousands have been either carelessly discarded, or brutally scaled down to almost insignificance, whilst in their place have sprung up the so-called service industries who, if we're anyway lucky, employ people by the hundreds, but are more likely to have workforces measured by the dozens. School leavers find it increasingly difficult to find work, not easier. Then there's the sheer lunacy of importing cheap labour into this country on a scale hitherto unheard of.
More/better jobs? If we say the population of Britain is around 60million, how many should be doctors, architects, solicitors, wide boys in the "city", IT experts, etc, etc? If we accept that, as has always been the case since the dawn of time, there will always be the mass of people who, for one reason or another, haven't the where-with-all to rise above the "ordinary", can it be right to dismiss them as being "surplus" to the requirement of "progress", and could those that can, could they be sure it would simply be left at that, just so the few can progress at the expense of the many?
2. Progress for the few, at the expense of the many, will only become a millstone round the neck of capitalism, not that I wouldn't be sorry about that.
3. If businessmen today, aren't concerned about the "surplus" population they are creating for tomorrow, more fool them.
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DirtyHarry
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IWW mate, you're a man after my own heartIWW Fellow Worker wrote:Well said Harry. These people who use the name of Ned Ludd as an insult haven't a clue what they're on about. As for automation, in a propely run society it would be used to reduce working hours with no loss of pay rather than a way of throwing thousands of people onto the scrap heap as it is under the present system.DirtyHarry wrote:I'm a Luddite, I'm against any sort of machinary that deprives people of jobs.
Totally agree, why can't progress be shaped to benefit everyone?If progress, British style, means a future where tens of millions of people are simply cast aside, just so a few can reap the dubious benefits, I'll do what little I can to hinder that progress, who knows, a little industrial sabotage might be needed in the near future.
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TrueBlueTerrier
- FORUM ADMINISTRATOR
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Yeah lets clog them upDirtyHarry wrote:IWW mate, you're a man after my own heartIWW Fellow Worker wrote:Well said Harry. These people who use the name of Ned Ludd as an insult haven't a clue what they're on about. As for automation, in a propely run society it would be used to reduce working hours with no loss of pay rather than a way of throwing thousands of people onto the scrap heap as it is under the present system.DirtyHarry wrote:I'm a Luddite, I'm against any sort of machinary that deprives people of jobs.
If progress, British style, means a future where tens of millions of people are simply cast aside, just so a few can reap the dubious benefits, I'll do what little I can to hinder that progress, who knows, a little industrial sabotage might be needed in the near future.
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Bikedo
- Posts: 8
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What I want to know is, what are the offices with no machinery going to do when there are less and less IPS sorters because there throwing up walks for the 24 hours walks. The new contracts should not have been brought in untill all offices have the machinery in place. I have been told that it could be 2 to 3 years, by that time those of us on full time contracts will be out numbered and walking around on their knees. Or at the rate that they are leaving there will be no fulltimers. Also what happens at xmas!!!!!
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DirtyHarry
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Nice one, TBT.TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Yeah lets clog them upDirtyHarry wrote:IWW mate, you're a man after my own heartIWW Fellow Worker wrote:Well said Harry. These people who use the name of Ned Ludd as an insult haven't a clue what they're on about. As for automation, in a propely run society it would be used to reduce working hours with no loss of pay rather than a way of throwing thousands of people onto the scrap heap as it is under the present system.DirtyHarry wrote:I'm a Luddite, I'm against any sort of machinary that deprives people of jobs.
If progress, British style, means a future where tens of millions of people are simply cast aside, just so a few can reap the dubious benefits, I'll do what little I can to hinder that progress, who knows, a little industrial sabotage might be needed in the near future.
