SO THEY VOTED NO TO DEFEND US DID THEY??

[Geordie]

Lovejoy, please do not take this post the wrong way.

I have entered this debate as I believe your original post was out of order.

It begins with the title, expressing concern at those on the EC who voted no, but then the whole text mentions one individual.

You then use an argument based around what you see as a contradictory stance from that individual.

I have no idea whether you know the full details of the BBC mailroom agreement and background - could it be as simple as the members concerned are happy with the offer, and therefore it has simply been rubber stamped by the EC?

You then finish your original post with the assumption that the individual voted no because the EC elections are 'around the corner'. Does this assumption extend to the others who voted no?

Do we also assume that the 9 who voted for the agreement done so because they were electioneering as well?

At the time the proposed agreement was being discussed by the EC, there was no 'public opinion' as no one had seen the deal, and therefore the EC had no way of knowing which was going to be the populist vote (as you seem to think has happened)

The bottom line is that this deal will be voted in or out by the membership, irrelevant of which way the Officers, EC or Branches recommend.

Whichever decision is made by the membership does not make those who voted the opposite way wrong or right, and does not mean we all have to fall on the sword.

It simply means we are a democracy, and as always the members will have the final say.

[yipyap]

Lovejoy peddles HQ rubbish. Why so concerned about below inflation pay. The deal in cost terms is exactly the same as the OPG deal. Everyone knows the problem with the deal is not pay, but strings - flexibility, pensions, longs and shorts, productivity, loss of jobs, MTSF, etc ad infinitum. Cut the bull stop attacking individuals for political purposes, stick to the issues - save the custard pie throwing for the forthcoming pantomime season.

[lovejoy]

Lovejoy, please do not take this post the wrong way.

I have entered this debate as I believe your original post was out of order.

It begins with the title, expressing concern at those on the EC who voted no, but then the whole text mentions one individual.

You then use an argument based around what you see as a contradictory stance from that individual.

I have no idea whether you know the full details of the BBC mailroom agreement and background - could it be as simple as the members concerned are happy with the offer, and therefore it has simply been rubber stamped by the EC?

You then finish your original post with the assumption that the individual voted no because the EC elections are 'around the corner'. Does this assumption extend to the others who voted no?

Do we also assume that the 9 who voted for the agreement done so because they were electioneering as well?

At the time the proposed agreement was being discussed by the EC, there was no 'public opinion' as no one had seen the deal, and therefore the EC had no way of knowing which was going to be the populist vote (as you seem to think has happened)

The bottom line is that this deal will be voted in or out by the membership, irrelevant of which way the Officers, EC or Branches recommend.

Whichever decision is made by the membership does not make those who voted the opposite way wrong or right, and does not mean we all have to fall on the sword.

It simply means we are a democracy, and as always the members will have the final say.

no problem with that mate, thats what democracy is all about!! Just thought it was an interesting piece of info

[sol]

Lovejoy. If you are “in 100% agreement with POSTMAN that we should be fighting with Royal Mail and not with each otherâ€

[rathbonepostie]

My understanding of the BBC deal is as follows:

It involves 19 workers.
The pay offer is 2.5%, one year, no strings.
The BBC workers feel it is the best they can get in the circumstances and are therefore "happy" with the offer.

Does anyone want to argue that a workforce of 19 could have forced more out of the employer? Can you compare that with a workforce of 130,000?

Who knows how anyone on the PEC would have voted if that was the deal on offer to us. I do know pay was never the number 1 issue for me or many of those I work with.

Surely the charge of hypocrisy could equally be levelled and those who voted for the RM deal and against the BBC one?

Seems to me the votes against the BBC deal were not about the issue on the table, which they should be, but to be used as a stick against those campaigning against the RM deal.

[dvbuk55]

I was once a member of the GMB(ATU) as it was then known, this was prior to the privatisation of the ESI and they weren't the only negotiating union nor the most powerful, but they were the largest - you can take my word for it or not, but they sold out their members just to be sitting at the table. I left on privatisation but I still speak to members who remained - those few who are left.

This deal smacks very much of those times but with the CWU instead and this is before privatisation rears its head for our members, but I think it's coming and not too distant. You have to ask yourself as a member of a union if it is enough to be represented at the top table if your representative is only there to pass the condiments.

[elal1963]

" An enemy of my enemy is my friend"

So whoever, for what ever, votes NO is kicking the ball in the right direction IMHO.

the deal is a backward step for the workers so lets not take it

[BELIAL]

I've thought there was something fishy about 'Lovejoy' for sometime. He is very well informed that you have to wonder about who he is or what connections he has. So well informed in fact that after declaring he is finished with posting (under instruction from his wife and daughter) he gets so excited at a bit of new that he comes back. What for? To attack the only PEC member who has had the bottle to express his opposition to the deal publicly.

He knows who voted which way at a PEC meeting and posts the information THE DAY AFTER the meeting took place.

'Lovejoy' may not be a PEC member lurking on the site (though he might be). However, he is either close to a PEC member or is being used as a channel of communication by one of them. He has been repeating some of the arguments from some of the 9. One of his recent postings, of course, was a Vote Yes poster.

By the way 'Lovejoy', I'm a member of the GMB as I said in my first post. I've also said I've not voted in the poll on the deal since I thought it should only be CWU members who did (despite the fact that this site is not exclusively for CWU members) or else it would give a false impression of the balance of opinion.

Sol given 1. my soft nature and 2. I am mindful and in 100% agreement with POSTMAN that we should be fighting with Royal Mail and not each other I will tone down what i SHOULD be putting here

If you read my semi retirement post you will notice that i stated i will have to cut down not stop. You say i was excited at receiving this news? Not really i knew 2 days ago and just put it on last night.

I am not on the PEC, near the PEC nor do I have any connections with the PEC. My reps pass on info through the usual chain of command and if i hear something that i think other site members will be interested in i post it.

My post was not to attack Dave Warren. It was merely to highlight what has happened. Would you rather members were given a false impression of the truth? Is this how the GMB operate?

I note that you haven't voted in the poll but you certainly have had your say on a document and ballot that you (a) know nothing about and (b) has no relevance to you.

I am a postman and i post and reply to threads on here that i feel are relevant. Why do you post on here sol?

Our union may have made some mistake along the way but at least we're still standing and fighting right across the UK. The last i hear from the GMB was when they crossed our picket lines in Belfast and tried to get a recognition agreement with Royal Mail.

I have no motives when i post except to pass on information that interests me and i think will interest others.

"i have no motives" pull the other one Lovejoy , you've clearly got a bug up your arse regarding the SWP. Most of your recent posts consist of vitriolic attacks de facto or by inference upon SWP union reps.
Just to be clear I have no affiliation with this group, but i am shocked to see that you are willing to defend the indefensible, ie this deal, purely to oppose the SWP.
Don't know what political game you are playing mate but it aint helping the members.
Lets trash the GMB thats helpful?
SOME MISTAKES you can say that again{downright amateur I'd say}
"still standing and fighting across the UK" yes despite HQ's best efforts; But isolated and without national leadership,sold out and betrayed

[lovejoy]

I've thought there was something fishy about 'Lovejoy' for sometime. He is very well informed that you have to wonder about who he is or what connections he has. So well informed in fact that after declaring he is finished with posting (under instruction from his wife and daughter) he gets so excited at a bit of new that he comes back. What for? To attack the only PEC member who has had the bottle to express his opposition to the deal publicly.

He knows who voted which way at a PEC meeting and posts the information THE DAY AFTER the meeting took place.

'Lovejoy' may not be a PEC member lurking on the site (though he might be). However, he is either close to a PEC member or is being used as a channel of communication by one of them. He has been repeating some of the arguments from some of the 9. One of his recent postings, of course, was a Vote Yes poster.

By the way 'Lovejoy', I'm a member of the GMB as I said in my first post. I've also said I've not voted in the poll on the deal since I thought it should only be CWU members who did (despite the fact that this site is not exclusively for CWU members) or else it would give a false impression of the balance of opinion.

Sol given 1. my soft nature and 2. I am mindful and in 100% agreement with POSTMAN that we should be fighting with Royal Mail and not each other I will tone down what i SHOULD be putting here

If you read my semi retirement post you will notice that i stated i will have to cut down not stop. You say i was excited at receiving this news? Not really i knew 2 days ago and just put it on last night.

I am not on the PEC, near the PEC nor do I have any connections with the PEC. My reps pass on info through the usual chain of command and if i hear something that i think other site members will be interested in i post it.

My post was not to attack Dave Warren. It was merely to highlight what has happened. Would you rather members were given a false impression of the truth? Is this how the GMB operate?

I note that you haven't voted in the poll but you certainly have had your say on a document and ballot that you (a) know nothing about and (b) has no relevance to you.

I am a postman and i post and reply to threads on here that i feel are relevant. Why do you post on here sol?

Our union may have made some mistake along the way but at least we're still standing and fighting right across the UK. The last i hear from the GMB was when they crossed our picket lines in Belfast and tried to get a recognition agreement with Royal Mail.

I have no motives when i post except to pass on information that interests me and i think will interest others.

"i have no motives" pull the other one Lovejoy , you've clearly got a bug up your arse regarding the SWP. Most of your recent posts consist of vitriolic attacks de facto or by inference upon SWP union reps.
Just to be clear I have no affiliation with this group, but i am shocked to see that you are willing to defend the indefensible, ie this deal, purely to oppose the SWP.
Don't know what political game you are playing mate but it aint helping the members.
Lets trash the GMB thats helpful?
SOME MISTAKES you can say that again{downright amateur I'd say}
"still standing and fighting across the UK" yes despite HQ's best efforts; But isolated and without national leadership,sold out and betrayed

Yeah is suppose I do have a bug up my asre about the SWP .

But on the other hand you know its not the only reason I will vote yes. I have stated my reasons before.

I simply post my views and if you don't like them thats up to you.

[lovenotmoney]

We should encourage other trade unionists such as sol to use this site and take an interest in our dispute. It is only with solidarity across the union movement that we can progress.
It seems to me that Dave Warren is sticking his neck out when he doesn't have to. I understand that he is taking a lot of flack for it at HQ. It will be a sad day in our union when we have no one who isn't afraid to stand up and be counted.

[irishstaff]

I have just read through the debate that is going on and it seems to me Lovejoy, you our well informed far to much as what I can see and yes your mask is slipping. I have read much of what you have put on this site and YOUR so called views and then cloak it under debate, you seem to want to be the first to put it on this site for whatever reason, you then have the cheek to say that it is in the interest of the trade unionists on this site yeah rite! "I HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE FROM CONTROL FREAKS OR SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO BE IMPORTANT" you seem to be having a pop at other trade unionist(GMB member) from a different union why? Because they asked questions from you, you act in a childish manner quoting that this person union members passed a picket line in Belfast and that this union where trying to get an agreement of some kind, then if you knew about this what have YOU done about this NOTHING! "so talks CHEAP" you say that your unit rep tell"s you everything then how would your unit rep no about what the GMB where doing in Belfast as certain things where not made public as it was privy only to the National Union and the Branch as they where only people you knew about this information . You no who voted for this deal and who the 9 where so for the interest of the real trade unionist on this site then put up or shut up and put there names on this site! How would a O.P.G as you said you where or cliam to be" O sorry a post-person who has stated " that you are not PEC or have not a thing to do with the PEC, that your only a O.P.G then post what is happening with CWU members of the BBC and how where you privy to what was said and what D.Warren has said or suppose to say do not insult my intelligence or the trade unionists on this site...you may fool some of the members some of the time BUT not all of the time..........so if you want to have a real debate lets get it on...as I will reveal what you are all about?

[marky]

go for it irishlad seems u like a debate

[stubaby]

Jesus christ the lad was only posting his opinion and gets slaughtered for it.
Lovejoy has kept us fully informed over the past few months and people have come on here and thanked him for that.
He then questions the actions of a PEC member over another issue and everyone jumps on him.
Thanks for the information Lovejoy as always you come up trumps.

[lovejoy]

I have just read through the debate that is going on and it seems to me Lovejoy, you our well informed far to much as what I can see and yes your mask is slipping. I have read much of what you have put on this site and YOUR so called views and then cloak it under debate, you seem to want to be the first to put it on this site for whatever reason, you then have the cheek to say that it is in the interest of the trade unionists on this site yeah rite! "I HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE FROM CONTROL FREAKS OR SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO BE IMPORTANT" you seem to be having a pop at other trade unionist(GMB member) from a different union why? Because they asked questions from you, you act in a childish manner quoting that this person union members passed a picket line in Belfast and that this union where trying to get an agreement of some kind, then if you knew about this what have YOU done about this NOTHING! "so talks CHEAP" you say that your unit rep tell"s you everything then how would your unit rep no about what the GMB where doing in Belfast as certain things where not made public as it was privy only to the National Union and the Branch as they where only people you knew about this information . You no who voted for this deal and who the 9 where so for the interest of the real trade unionist on this site then put up or shut up and put there names on this site! How would a O.P.G as you said you where or cliam to be" O sorry a post-person who has stated " that you are not PEC or have not a thing to do with the PEC, that your only a O.P.G then post what is happening with CWU members of the BBC and how where you privy to what was said and what D.Warren has said or suppose to say do not insult my intelligence or the trade unionists on this site...you may fool some of the members some of the time BUT not all of the time..........so if you want to have a real debate lets get it on...as I will reveal what you are all about?

the incident with the GMB in Belfast was well documented at the time of the unofficial action and was reported on leaflets that went out right across the UK. And you ask what i did about it? Actually I wrote to the TUC in disgust and my branch made a donation to the Belfast branch so before you shoot your mouth off maybe you should check your facts!

On the people who voted yes/ no that has already been posted mate so theres no cloak and dagger!

The BBC info came to me via my area rep and as far as i know it is spot on!

Listen mate if you want a debate then fair enough just PM me and we'll have a chat. I'm not sure what you will reveal but go right ahead!

[stubaby]

I have just read through the debate that is going on and it seems to me Lovejoy, you our well informed far to much as what I can see and yes your mask is slipping. I have read much of what you have put on this site and YOUR so called views and then cloak it under debate, you seem to want to be the first to put it on this site for whatever reason, you then have the cheek to say that it is in the interest of the trade unionists on this site yeah rite! "I HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE FROM CONTROL FREAKS OR SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO BE IMPORTANT" you seem to be having a pop at other trade unionist(GMB member) from a different union why? Because they asked questions from you, you act in a childish manner quoting that this person union members passed a picket line in Belfast and that this union where trying to get an agreement of some kind, then if you knew about this what have YOU done about this NOTHING! "so talks CHEAP" you say that your unit rep tell"s you everything then how would your unit rep no about what the GMB where doing in Belfast as certain things where not made public as it was privy only to the National Union and the Branch as they where only people you knew about this information . You no who voted for this deal and who the 9 where so for the interest of the real trade unionist on this site then put up or shut up and put there names on this site! How would a O.P.G as you said you where or cliam to be" O sorry a post-person who has stated " that you are not PEC or have not a thing to do with the PEC, that your only a O.P.G then post what is happening with CWU members of the BBC and how where you privy to what was said and what D.Warren has said or suppose to say do not insult my intelligence or the trade unionists on this site...you may fool some of the members some of the time BUT not all of the time..........so if you want to have a real debate lets get it on...as I will reveal what you are all about?

You claim to know much but what do you really know? SFA?
You say talk is cheap your right but you seem to be doing much of that.
Come on reveal to us all what you know i cannot wait............