Kids At School

[nowt on the wireless]

If they asked for time off for dependants it should not have been refused, as I've pointed out it's a statutory right and management do not have the authority to refuse it. If they asked for annual leave or paid time off then that would be refused, I wasn't there so I have no idea how the conversation went but even though I've met many deficient managers in my time I've yet to meet one stupid enough to stop someone going to pick up a sick child from school. I also don't know any members who wouldn't have just put their jacket on and left if their child was ill with no-one else to care for them....so perhaps there are parts of the story missing.

Colleague is first contact for school, their partner works further away, so colleagues partner eventually managed to get away from their workplace to collect child, but still colleague was upset by lack of concern from manager + rep

[rehabron]

Time off for dependants is a statutory right for all employees and it is unlawful for an employer to subject its employees to any detriment for taking it.

That means removing management discretion from the equation complely and the use of annual leave since some members will have more annual leave than others and some may have none left to take. The business could of course take the decision to pay all "time off for dependants" but since it's a statutory right they would never be able to refuse it and that would probably bankrupt the business within 6 months.

The government guidelines for time off for family and dependants and what constitutes as an EMERGENCY
The illness can be physical or mental but does not necessarily have to be life threatening but time allowed off to give assitance in the emergency.
The school took the decision that the child was unwell and unable to continue with class and to avoid further complications and without referral to the school doctor did what they are instructed to do and contacted a parent whose phone number is on record that being the dad who is employed at RM and nearest to the school.
The release of the postman on informing his manager was left to the discretion of the manager who has a duty of care for employees and as the postman was still within the building could have made other arrangements for him to be released rather than point blank refuse which is a breach of his statutory right and that's why managers get paid the big bucks yo make on the spot decisions.
If it was the managers child who had taken sick at school he/her would be in their car heading for the school by the end of the telephone conversation.
The Time Off support booklet for managers gives them advice on how to deal with the emergency and understand the situation and what is required to deal with it and a total refusal is not how to deal with it.
Its OK for your house to be flooded and get 1 day off paid and up to 3 days depending on the circumstances but your childs welfare does not even come into the equation.
The manager and the rep should hang their head in shame.
.

[Navalron]

The manager is a w****r/cow.

[Woody Guthrie]

Without quoting your entire post ron you've missed the point entirely.

Time Off for dependants is a statutory right, cannot be refused by management and as such has to be unpaid.

Any other special leave is at the discretion of management and therefore can be refused.

The business position is that leave to care for a sick child is covered by Time Off for dependants in line with ACAS guidelines, should not be refused and is therefore unpaid.

The only question is did this member ask for TOFD or did they ask for paid special leave/annual leave? If they asked for TOFD and were refused they should raise a grievance and consider an employment tribunal because the manager acted unlawfully. If they asked for paid leave/annual leave then despite the moral vacuum between the managers ears he has followed the business guidelines.

Before we hang anyone we have to do a bit of critical thinking, did this manager really stop a member of staff from leaving the office to pick up their sick child from school or did the member baulk at the idea of losing a day's pay and decide to phone his partner instead?

I can't speak for everyone but I would have just put my jacket on, informed management I was going and left leaving the conversation about whether I was getting paid for another day.

I can't speak for every office but if a manager in my office had unlawfully refused a request to pick up a sick child we would all be standing at the gate grilling sausages.

[rehabron]

Without quoting your entire post ron you've missed the point entirely.

Time Off for dependants is a statutory right, cannot be refused by management and as such has to be unpaid.

Any other special leave is at the discretion of management and therefore can be refused.

The business position is that leave to care for a sick child is covered by Time Off for dependants in line with ACAS guidelines, should not be refused and is therefore unpaid.

The only question is did this member ask for TOFD or did they ask for paid special leave/annual leave? If they asked for TOFD and were refused they should raise a grievance and consider an employment tribunal because the manager acted unlawfully. If they asked for paid leave/annual leave then despite the moral vacuum between the managers ears he has followed the business guidelines.

Before we hang anyone we have to do a bit of critical thinking, did this manager really stop a member of staff from leaving the office to pick up their sick child from school or did the member baulk at the idea of losing a day's pay and decide to phone his partner instead?


As we are both not privy to the conversation between the opg and the manager and what his request was to that manager to cover his absence whether special leave was asked or his A/L entitlement or whether the opg was miffed at having to lose a days wages and contacted his partner the point that you are missing that common sense could have been applied by a considerate manager in the circumstances without having to resort to special leave or an intrusion into his A/L.
The Other Time Off support booklet for managers is an HR instruction on how to deal with unexpected events and is a guideline on how the manager should approach the individual request to assist and avoid any further stress to the employee but it can be left to the interpretation of the manager on how best to tackle the problem from both angles the business and the employee as its not actually written in stone
To travel to the school and collect his child and if it was not necessary for a doctors appointment drop the child off with a relative and the whole process consisting of several hours not a day off as the TOFD states. He could have come to an agreement with the manager on completing the above that he would return to work.
Putting his jacket on and leaving could have become a conduct issue with a charge of AWOL if you go by this manager.
Why can't a RM manager use COMMON SENSE.







I can't speak for everyone but I would have just put my jacket on, informed management I was going and left leaving the conversation about whether I was getting paid for another day.

I can't speak for every office but if a manager in my office had unlawfully refused a request to pick up a sick child we would all be standing at the gate grilling sausages.

[Woody Guthrie]

but it can be left to the interpretation of the manager on how best to tackle the problem from both angles the business and the employee as its not actually written in stone

It is written in stone.
It can be TOFD which is unpaid but cannot be refused.
or
It can be paid special leave/annual leave which can be refused.

It can't be a mixture of the two.

Given that caring for a sick child is specifically catered for in the definition of TOFD in the ACAS guidelines and it's a situation no sensible employer would ever refuse which do you think it would fall under?

[rehabron]

Isn't all our National Agreements negotiated and ratified by both parties over the years written in stone but reality has shown they have not been honoured by management and interpreted to their advantage.

The Other Time Off booklet gives managers an indication on how to deal with different occurrences and is basically left to them on how to enforce it from both points of view.

You have already been informed from another poster that he has been given time off and been paid for a similar situation. Then what we have is one office allowing time off for dependants paid and another manager at a different office sticking to the police document and refusing leave or if granted will be unpaid. How can that be written in stone to me that in the first instance is recognising a manager who is human and in the other instance a manager who will interpret what is written in front of him and can't make the call using common sense.

[Woody Guthrie]

You have already been informed from another poster that he has been given time off and been paid for a similar situation. Then what we have is one office allowing time off for dependants paid

Again you're missing the point.
Nobody is given TOFD paid, it's impossible as the psp system won't allow it because it's an unpaid leave and a statutory right.

What number one (the other poster) has been given is paid special leave, that's fine but it is at the manager's discretion so if it is refused you have no argument.

If TOFD(unpaid) is refused that would be unlawful.

[rehabron]

Whether it be signed agreements, policies, attendance agreement, conduct issues, special leave, other time off, family friendly, flexible working, resigns/revision , scheduled attendance, hospital appointments the application of these differs from office to office from John O' Groats to Lands End and is not uniform throughout and in the majority of cases is left to a manager to make the decision on how he/her should apply. Paid or unpaid leave, duty swop, time clawback at the discretion of a manager and aligned if you are one of his/her favourites or an employee who continually gives them grief.
Again getting back to the point in hand the manager could have treated the OPG request for a leave of absence for his sick child at school more considerately and sympathetically as to a point blank refusal that he took and taken a more humane approach without having to consult the business default position on TOFD.
The size and administration of this business should have been able to release the OPG for a few hours to attend to the crisis and contact to be made if returning to work after attending to the situation or if more time is required then applying the business stance on TOFD.
The manager should be able to gauge his staff that the OPG is not one to milk a particular situation and with this knowledge base his decision on that without any further reference to a policy document.