VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE DEBATE

[lovejoy]

well - branch reps would be following the PEC -

we've had no branch meeting so we dont know how our branch are going will phone 'em tomorrow

if they recomend YES then they should have a meeting and explain why they have chosen to accept - then it would be upto the members attending to decide whether they're talking bullshit or not.

ultimately the members will have the final say surely - if there is a majority vote against the deal then all those reps at whatever level that supported the deal should seriously reconsider there position and be subject to re election!!!

Fair enough so the same must go if you (speaking as if your rep) recommend NO vote and your members vote NO!!??

[Picket]

we have a member of pec coming 2 ours for a q + a should be fun

your lucky apparently the nine are in very much demand our branch were wanting an area meeting today but couldn't find a senior rep who wanted the deal available to attend.

[k979aaa]

Royalmail must be pissing themself's at this a divided union is a conquerd union we are a democratic union the vote shall count and will count and if billy & dave do not take onboard the wish's of the membership they will be makeing a big mistake.

[Picket]

Royalmail must be pissing themself's at this a divided union is a conquerd union we are a democratic union the vote shall count and will count and if billy & dave do not take onboard the wish's of the membership they will be makeing a big mistake.

i'm not sure it is weakened by this division - the EC members who accepted it were obviously following the 2 guys at top - Hayes and Ward possibly have other agendas - and anyone else down the line of command who are recommending it are again following the poor judgement of the Gen and Dep secs -

hopefully the members will clearly show both the PEC and senior reps and RM that we are united and are not going to make sacrifices and strike only then to turn around and accept a dressed up dummy of a deal.!!!!

[dvbuk55]

regarding the outcome of the coming ballot

- i think its quite reasonable to think that if out CWU leaders think that its a great deal and if the majority think its not then they surely are unsuitable to represent us to our employers -

quite simply they stand in for all of us and if what they think is different to what the majority think then they must resign as the ballot is a vote on their judgement too!!!!

yep so what about the branches? If they recommend one way and the members go the other way should they resign?

Just why have you got a bee in your bonnet about branch reps resigning? On a scale of 1 to 10 who would you consider to be most culpable the negotiators or those following their advice? If this executive had any balls whatsoever they would come to the membership with total honesty and say - "we don't like it, we have tried our best, we are not going to recommend it, we feel that the terms set out are not in your best interests but the reality is at this point in time we cannot survive as a union if we continue with IA. We recommend an open vote on the issues set before you INCLUDING THE PENSIONS ISSUE and a complete breakdown of the issues and the likely impact on units is attached. We are of the opinion, that should a NO vote prevail, we would not advocate further IA but would try to amend the agreement with further discussion and suspend any proposed trials until all avenues have been exhausted."

What we got was a self serving statement recommending the agreement with something far short of honesty.

[k979aaa]

regarding the outcome of the coming ballot

- i think its quite reasonable to think that if out CWU leaders think that its a great deal and if the majority think its not then they surely are unsuitable to represent us to our employers -

quite simply they stand in for all of us and if what they think is different to what the majority think then they must resign as the ballot is a vote on their judgement too!!!!

yep so what about the branches? If they recommend one way and the members go the other way should they resign?

Just why have you got a bee in your bonnet about branch reps resigning? On a scale of 1 to 10 who would you consider to be most culpable the negotiators or those following their advice? If this executive had any balls whatsoever they would come to the membership with total honesty and say - "we don't like it, we have tried our best, we are not going to recommend it, we feel that the terms set out are not in your best interests but the reality is at this point in time we cannot survive as a union if we continue with IA. We recommend an open vote on the issues set before you INCLUDING THE PENSIONS ISSUE and a complete breakdown of the issues and the likely impact on units is attached. We are of the opinion, that should a NO vote prevail, we would not advocate further IA but would try to amend the agreement with further discussion and suspend any proposed trials until all avenues have been exhausted."

What we got was a self serving statement recommending the agreement with something far short of honesty.

seconded.

[lovejoy]

regarding the outcome of the coming ballot

- i think its quite reasonable to think that if out CWU leaders think that its a great deal and if the majority think its not then they surely are unsuitable to represent us to our employers -

quite simply they stand in for all of us and if what they think is different to what the majority think then they must resign as the ballot is a vote on their judgement too!!!!

yep so what about the branches? If they recommend one way and the members go the other way should they resign?

Just why have you got a bee in your bonnet about branch reps resigning? On a scale of 1 to 10 who would you consider to be most culpable the negotiators or those following their advice? If this executive had any balls whatsoever they would come to the membership with total honesty and say - "we don't like it, we have tried our best, we are not going to recommend it, we feel that the terms set out are not in your best interests but the reality is at this point in time we cannot survive as a union if we continue with IA. We recommend an open vote on the issues set before you INCLUDING THE PENSIONS ISSUE and a complete breakdown of the issues and the likely impact on units is attached. We are of the opinion, that should a NO vote prevail, we would not advocate further IA but would try to amend the agreement with further discussion and suspend any proposed trials until all avenues have been exhausted."

What we got was a self serving statement recommending the agreement with something far short of honesty.

there is no obsession. I'm just a firm believer in live by the sword die by the sword!!

There are reps calling for the heads of national union officials for being out of touch so if the cap fits???!!!

[dvbuk55]

there is no obsession. I'm just a firm believer in live by the sword die by the sword!!

There are reps calling for the heads of national union officials for being out of touch so if the cap fits???!!!

IMO that is rather melodramatic. I would consider it to be more like a train, going forward, no destination worth mentioning, with the executive as the train driver and everyone else willing or unwilling passengers. Perhaps those reps are guilty of no more than following the leaders with blind faith, that doesn't mean they are out of touch, merely misguided. Should you ever be in a position of power, god forbid, you would certainly need a long, long wall. You certainly seem able to shift the blame.

[lovejoy]

there is no obsession. I'm just a firm believer in live by the sword die by the sword!!

There are reps calling for the heads of national union officials for being out of touch so if the cap fits???!!!

IMO that is rather melodramatic. I would consider it to be more like a train, going forward, no destination worth mentioning, with the executive as the train driver and everyone else willing or unwilling passengers. .

And i'm melodramatic ???

[pcb]

Lovejoy. My branch Reps did not come up with the deal. How's their pension? My branch Reps didn't take months to decide on IA or wait until the last minute to call action when the country was ready to go. My branch Reps didn't agree to this deal because they have not become divorced from the workplace. My Branch Reps have had to fight this agressive management for the last 5 years whilst some at HQ have chosen to turned their heads the other way. As local Reps we are the interface and Its us who end up on conduct charges, its us who bang our heads against the wall because there is no one at HQ after 1500hrs on Fridays to try and clarify an issue. By the way we fall on our swords every year when voted out by the membership. I could go on but I hope the point is made.

[lovejoy]

Lovejoy. My branch Reps did not come up with the deal. How's their pension? My branch Reps didn't take months to decide on IA or wait until the last minute to call action when the country was ready to go. My branch Reps didn't agree to this deal because they have not become divorced from the workplace. My Branch Reps have had to fight this agressive management for the last 5 years whilst some at HQ have chosen to turned their heads the other way. As local Reps we are the interface and Its us who end up on conduct charges, its us who bang our heads against the wall because there is no one at HQ after 1500hrs on Fridays to try and clarify an issue. By the way we fall on our swords every year when voted out by the membership. I could go on but I hope the point is made.

Not really mate? If you as a rep think the deal is unacceptable and your members in your unit vote YES should you resign?

[Southsider]

Does a yes or no vote really matter regarding this debate bearing in mind our past history.

1. Alan Johnson had to go when his attempt to sell us the employee agenda deal was binned by the membership.

2. John Keggie had to go because he gave us the way forward, which was voted in by the membership.

After reading the deal in depth. It is my humble opinion that both the individuals named above were emptied for far less.


Sorry lads but it's time to go.

[dvbuk55]

Not really mate? If you as a rep think the deal is unacceptable and your members in your unit vote YES should you resign?

How does pieces of eight sound? Repetitive? Well it should do, because you've been banging on the same theme for what seems like forever. The Branch officials are not paid employees of the Union, some may well have ambition to move on in Union affairs, an ambition I am sure you will be familiar with. Make no mistake though they should NOT resign - they have been presented with a fait accompli by those who we elected but also to whom we pay a not inconsiderable salary to conduct our affairs. I am 100% certain Hayes and Ward do not consider this deal as acceptable and I am also 100% certain they aren't really bothered what they agree to. Hayes should try doing another Jack Kerouac but for a lot longer.

[lovejoy]

Not really mate? If you as a rep think the deal is unacceptable and your members in your unit vote YES should you resign?

How does pieces of eight sound? Repetitive? Well it should do, because you've been banging on the same theme for what seems like forever. The Branch officials are not paid employees of the Union, some may well have ambition to move on in Union affairs, an ambition I am sure you will be familiar with. Make no mistake though they should NOT resign - they have been presented with a fait accompli by those who we elected but also to whom we pay a not inconsiderable salary to conduct our affairs. I am 100% certain Hayes and Ward do not consider this deal as acceptable and I am also 100% certain they aren't really bothered what they agree to. Hayes should try doing another Jack Kerouac but for a lot longer.

All I asked was that you gave an opinion - You have now stated you think they should not resign. Thats it. And you've mentioned the ambition one before mate. Get a new tactic ready for when you're struggling!

[Picket]

alas after a heated debate on rep recommendations on this deal i contacted my branch to get their view on it and ..............they're not recommending one way or the other - they must have been viewing the previous posts hehe

they said and correctly, that all members should carefully read and as best understand the implications of voting one way or the other and then decide on their own action.

i got the impression that my reps were'nt happy about the deal but felt it might be the best deal we'll get even if we continue to dispute over it and possibly take more IA.

this however hasn't changed my mind - if somethings not right - its not right!