Ghosting hours

Post by **aiden01** » 11 Jun 2018, 22:02

number one wrote:
aiden01 wrote:
number one wrote:
Tman wrote:It's very much fraud and we've had a couple of colleagues dismissed for it.
Doesn't matter what the boss (whatever grade or title he has) offers, to sign for/accept that overtime has been worked but leave before the end of that time period is fraud, and to say by way of an excuse that "he said I could" or "everyone does it" won't wash.
There's a million reasons why someone could have left before the end of their duty period, but not one for leaving early on O/T but booking as if they'd worked it.

I think people need to look up the definition of fraud as this isn’t fraud!!
It is fraud end of
Just because you keep saying it doesn’t automatically make it right.

So if you’re finish time is 14:30 and you finish at 14:00 is that fraud?

Thought we we were talking about ghost ot now you have changed the subject. Ghost ot is fraud how many times do you need to be told.

Creditshampoo · Post by **Creditshampoo** » 12 Jun 2018, 08:25

Who can I report ghosting to?

world class male · Post by **world class male** » 12 Jun 2018, 08:32

perhaps "fraud" is too strong of a word in this case
so those going home 10 mins early after doing a regular day are the same?

Post by **TheBushBaby** » 12 Jun 2018, 10:08

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 12 Jun 2018, 15:21

No, that's a disciplinary issue. Claiming O/T for hours you haven't worked is fraud.

Creditshampoo · Post by **Creditshampoo** » 12 Jun 2018, 15:40

world class male wrote:perhaps "fraud" is too strong of a word in this case
so those going home 10 mins early after doing a regular day are the same?

No. It’s our job to turn up and work any work management wish us to do within our contract hours. If they can’t provide us with the work that’s it we can go if they allow us to.

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 12 Jun 2018, 16:00

number one wrote:
Tman wrote:It's very much fraud and we've had a couple of colleagues dismissed for it.
Doesn't matter what the boss (whatever grade or title he has) offers, to sign for/accept that overtime has been worked but leave before the end of that time period is fraud, and to say by way of an excuse that "he said I could" or "everyone does it" won't wash.
There's a million reasons why someone could have left before the end of their duty period, but not one for leaving early on O/T but booking as if they'd worked it.

I think people need to look up the definition of fraud as this isn’t fraud!!

Its the very definition of fraud:

noun

wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
"he was convicted of fraud"

synonyms: fraudulence, sharp practice, cheating, swindling, trickery, artifice, deceit, deception, double-dealing, duplicity, treachery, chicanery, skulduggery, imposture, embezzlement;

a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

But I would be interested in your definition if that doesn't fit yours.

Ozzvaldo · Post by **Ozzvaldo** » 12 Jun 2018, 18:42

We had a WTLL session today in which our manager basically told us that once a bedding in period for PDA Actuals has elapsed (without actually specifying what this means in practice,) they would be start to offer part/whole deliveries as OT (to be completed after your own delivery) with payments based upon what time PDAs have been logged off whilst performing similar OT during the bedding in period.

In other words, the aim is to remove ghost hours. I don't know whether this is being driven by our DOMs desire to reduce the OT bill and thus look good in the eyes of the area Manager, or whether it's as a result of direct pressure from above. I suspect it's the latter as we're constantly understaffed and the DOM has relied on several people to clear the office who have ghosted virtually every day for years.

citypostie · Post by **citypostie** » 12 Jun 2018, 18:57

Ozzvaldo wrote:We had a WTLL session today in which our manager basically told us that once a bedding in period for PDA Actuals has elapsed (without actually specifying what this means in practice,) they would be start to offer part/whole deliveries as OT (to be completed after your own delivery) with payments based upon what time PDAs have been logged off whilst performing similar OT during the bedding in period.

In other words, the aim is to remove ghost hours. I don't know whether this is being driven by our DOMs desire to reduce the OT bill and thus look good in the eyes of the area Manager, or whether it's as a result of direct pressure from above. I suspect it's the latter as we're constantly understaffed and the DOM has relied on several people to clear the office who have ghosted virtually every day for years.

I bet there will be que about 0 postie long to do overtime at about 3pm!

A2B · Post by **A2B** » 12 Jun 2018, 19:17

Sorry i don't understand this bit....

Ozzvaldo wrote: they would be start to offer part/whole deliveries as OT (to be completed after your own delivery) with payments based upon what time PDAs have been logged off whilst performing similar OT during the bedding in period..

They are potentially offering overtime on a job and finish basis while also wanting to make people work their full contracted hours? No matter what people say there will still be people prepared to do overtime late into the afternoon/evening, surely they should be paid for however long it takes to complete the work, isn't that what RM want in the first place

Ozzvaldo · Post by **Ozzvaldo** » 12 Jun 2018, 19:53

A2B wrote:Sorry i don't understand this bit....

Ozzvaldo wrote: they would be start to offer part/whole deliveries as OT (to be completed after your own delivery) with payments based upon what time PDAs have been logged off whilst performing similar OT during the bedding in period..
They are potentially offering overtime on a job and finish basis while also wanting to make people work their full contracted hours? No matter what people say there will still be people prepared to do overtime late into the afternoon/evening, surely they should be paid for however long it takes to complete the work, isn't that what RM want in the first place

At the moment in my office, one person doing a full delivery on top of their own receives 5 hours OT irrespective of what time they finish. If they start early, carry pouches, climb over fences, walk over lawns, drive dangerously, don't wear seat belts, miss their meal breaks, jog/run around etc they usually complete their own delivery plus the OT one only an hour or two over the scheduled daily finishing time. However, they receive 5 hours OT instead of one or two, the hours actually worked. Believe me, NONE of the ghosts in my office will be rushing around simply to be paid until their PDA is logged off, that isn't in their mindset. I'm not making a case for or against using PDA Actuals to change current accepted working practices in my unit, I'm just informing the forum of what happened in my office today.

A2B · Post by **A2B** » 12 Jun 2018, 20:11

Ozzvaldo wrote: At the moment in my office, one person doing a full delivery on top of their own receives 5 hours OT irrespective of what time they finish. If they start early, carry pouches, climb over fences, walk over lawns, drive dangerously, don't wear seat belts, miss their meal breaks, jog/run around etc they usually complete their own delivery plus the OT one only an hour or two over the scheduled daily finishing time. However, they receive 5 hours OT instead of one or two, the hours actually worked. Believe me, NONE of the ghosts in my office will be rushing around simply to be paid until their PDA is logged off, that isn't in their mindset. I'm not making a case for or against using PDA Actuals to change current accepted working practices in my unit, I'm just informing the forum of what happened in my office today.

Fully understand where your coming from, (it's the same in many offices) but there's no way that RM are going to turn a blind eye to people claiming for hours not worked , if your claiming for 5hrs you better be prepared to be out working for 5hrs.

The only way i can see ghost overtime continuing is if the DOM allows the use of pen and paper instead of PDA, but that will get spotted if it constantly happens

Ozzvaldo · Post by **Ozzvaldo** » 12 Jun 2018, 20:44

A2B wrote:
Ozzvaldo wrote: At the moment in my office, one person doing a full delivery on top of their own receives 5 hours OT irrespective of what time they finish. If they start early, carry pouches, climb over fences, walk over lawns, drive dangerously, don't wear seat belts, miss their meal breaks, jog/run around etc they usually complete their own delivery plus the OT one only an hour or two over the scheduled daily finishing time. However, they receive 5 hours OT instead of one or two, the hours actually worked. Believe me, NONE of the ghosts in my office will be rushing around simply to be paid until their PDA is logged off, that isn't in their mindset. I'm not making a case for or against using PDA Actuals to change current accepted working practices in my unit, I'm just informing the forum of what happened in my office today.
Fully understand where your coming from, (it's the same in many offices) but there's no way that RM are going to turn a blind eye to people claiming for hours not worked , if your claiming for 5hrs you better be prepared to be out working for 5hrs.

The only way i can see ghost overtime continuing is if the DOM allows the use of pen and paper instead of PDA, but that will get spotted if it constantly happens

I've worked in an undermanned office for over 20 years and ghosting has taken place here for as long as i can remember. It's always been driven by successive DOMs desire to clear the mail (even Adam Crozier's attempt to stop it a few years ago as part of his "50 Spanish Practices" list foundered on the need to meet the USO obligation) and it will be interesting to see if PDA Actuals will actually force RM's hand on the issues of working all paid hours and ghost overtime.

My office is divided into a relatively few people who basically decide between themselves what they will and won't deliver on OT before telling the management, and the rest of us who aren't too bothered at all about OT. Short of a recruitment drive, my DOM will be struggling to cover unmanned duties if this plan comes into force (hence why I think that it's being driven from above him), and a quick canvas of our ghosts shows absolutely no appetite for "only" being paid until their PDA logs off. They do not find a scenario where they finish their own duty 90 minutes early, as they do now, then having to "lapse" for 90 minutes on an OT duty and then being paid OT thereafter for the remnants of that duty palatable at all.

A2B · Post by **A2B** » 12 Jun 2018, 20:52

PDA Actuals is coming from senior management , DOMs hate it and it will probably see a few of them leave the company

I've found that with more and more 25hr contracts there isn't a shortage of people willing to do the overtime even if it means traveling from another office

Spedley · Post by **Spedley** » 12 Jun 2018, 21:01

I'm quite happy to get paid for the time I actually do on overtime - so long as it's time and a half!