Attendance in Severe Weather

[Himalaya]

Sorry if people think this has already been covered here but I'm still REALLY unclear about whether RM can legally claw back hours from us posties, and was hoping that forumites on here could provide absolute clarity? Is there a national agreement on this, or is it down to the discretion of each depot's manager how to treat this situation?

Our depot's delivery people were told to go home yesterday and today, and it looks like managers may have already deducted from our overtime sheets some or all of the snow-day shortfall (via. overtime hours already accrued through this last week). Alternatively they may be looking at clawing it back through overtime next week.

What are the up to date RM and CWU documents that cover snow days? Are the two parties in agreement on this, so that there is a clear written statement on whether or not snow-day hours can be clawed back?

Lots of forum messages on here say that RM can't not pay us if we made it into work and then got sent home, and that they can't claw back the time. I have read Dave Long's letter that states:

'There is no provision within the Pay & Modernisation Agreement for the clawback of any time as a result of what is tantamount to an 'act of God' i.e. the severe weather conditions that the UK is currently experiencing', and:

'We have had further reports that some Managers are attempting to have our members take annual leave, make good the time, or even in some cases Special Leave 'C' (unpaid) where they could not attend work through no fault of their own. Once again, our representatives should be clear that this has not been agreed with the Postal Department at CWU HQ'

BUT - is there anything crystal clear in writing, from the Royal Mail and/or CWU, that can be used to refute attempts to claw back time when we've been sent home on safety grounds? I cant believe there isnt something in black and white, at a national level, that covers how this situation be treated?

Thanks in advance!

[mattjo1@talktalk.net]

So what you are asking is can I have a day off and not pay anything back.

[Himalaya]

If we've made it in to work and are directed to go home/aren't provided with any work, then yes.

[mattjo1@talktalk.net]

If no work is available why would Royal Mail pay you, you name any company who would pay their employees for doing nothing you won't be able to do.

We are all paid to WORK 39 hours a week, why shouldn't Royal Mail expect 39 hours work back. No company would survive if we all went home early paid for doing nothing.

[LaggyBand]

Contract law. It’s a thing in this country.

[Postie45]

If no work is available why would Royal Mail pay you, you name any company who would pay their employees for doing nothing you won't be able to do.

We are all paid to WORK 39 hours a week, why shouldn't Royal Mail expect 39 hours work back. No company would survive if we all went home early paid for doing nothing.

if youre on zero hour contract and paid hourly - sure. Those of us on 39 hour contracts will get paid 39 hours, its simple as that, if theres not enough work its not our problem. Managers sending people home IS a matter of goodwill, they dont have to do it but would be scrooge like if they made everyone stay in an office doing nothing just so we are there the full hours. Name a company that would pay the employees their contract ? All of them id think unless they want to end up in court.

Regarding clawback, they cant do it, its up to the individual if they believe theyve been treated fairly the past few days ie getting to go home several hours before finish time to maybe not cut off if it means staying out an extra hour or 2 on Monday/Tuesday and not booking it as OT to get it clear.
Personally, i dont mind going over a little to clear for "free" next week as in our office we have been sent home very early, so i believe its fair to give something back (and ill still be way ahead on the deal hours wise) I understand some people have commitments and cant do it, id say its a personal issue and what you believe as fair yourself whether youre prepared to stay out and complete it for "free" next week, theres certainly no one who will be able to enforce it legally.
I think if everyone turned around and said "we are going to stick to our contracted hours and wont stay out" then next time it snowed your manager is more justified in just keeping everyone in the office all day... I mean if I were manager this is how I would feel, if people would rather stick to the contracted hours then fine, you dont need to do anything, those of you who like getting to go home early when it snows *may* want to think about it.

[steve1873]

If no work is available why would Royal Mail pay you, you name any company who would pay their employees for doing nothing you won't be able to do.

We are all paid to WORK 39 hours a week, why shouldn't Royal Mail expect 39 hours work back. No company would survive if we all went home early paid for doing nothing.

if youre on zero hour contract and paid hourly - sure. Those of us on 39 hour contracts will get paid 39 hours, its simple as that, if theres not enough work its not our problem. Managers sending people home IS a matter of goodwill, they dont have to do it but would be scrooge like if they made everyone stay in an office doing nothing just so we are there the full hours. Name a company that would pay the employees their contract ? All of them id think unless they want to end up in court.

Regarding clawback, they cant do it, its up to the individual if they believe theyve been treated fairly the past few days ie getting to go home several hours before finish time to maybe not cut off if it means staying out an extra hour or 2 on Monday/Tuesday and not booking it as OT to get it clear.
Personally, i dont mind going over a little to clear for "free" next week as in our office we have been sent home very early, so i believe its fair to give something back (and ill still be way ahead on the deal hours wise) I understand some people have commitments and cant do it, id say its a personal issue and what you believe as fair yourself whether youre prepared to stay out and complete it for "free" next week, theres certainly no one who will be able to enforce it legally.
I think if everyone turned around and said "we are going to stick to our contracted hours and wont stay out" then next time it snowed your manager is more justified in just keeping everyone in the office all day... I mean if I were manager this is how I would feel, if people would rather stick to the contracted hours then fine, you dont need to do anything, those of you who like getting to go home early when it snows *may* want to think about it.

On the flip side of that, is the business having an expectation of staff to attend during a red weather warning, even going as far as to say those within 2 miles or less should walk in. During a weather warning where a "risk to life" is genuine! In a situation where the mail centre that feeds the DO is closed and no mail is getting through, why would they not just close office and advise people not to travel? They put peoples welfare and lives at risk (not hyperbole, that is what the warning constituted), for no reason. People were threatened with losing pay if they did not attend.

Now, this was followed by sending people home early that day and on the 2 following days. So I take your point. However, 2 of those days it was clear that there was not going to be ANY work for any staff to do anyway, so why ask them to risk travelling? I tell you what, regardless of the fact we have been sent home early, the attitude I have seen over the past couple of days regarding peoples welfare from management has disgusted me and means there is absolutely no danger whatsoever I will be giving them anything but the bare minimum next week. Have a bit more respect for people and it would go along way!

[tragictramp]

Ive been on annual leave this week, by my calculations I’m owed 2 days holiday back

[Postie45]

If no work is available why would Royal Mail pay you, you name any company who would pay their employees for doing nothing you won't be able to do.

We are all paid to WORK 39 hours a week, why shouldn't Royal Mail expect 39 hours work back. No company would survive if we all went home early paid for doing nothing.

if youre on zero hour contract and paid hourly - sure. Those of us on 39 hour contracts will get paid 39 hours, its simple as that, if theres not enough work its not our problem. Managers sending people home IS a matter of goodwill, they dont have to do it but would be scrooge like if they made everyone stay in an office doing nothing just so we are there the full hours. Name a company that would pay the employees their contract ? All of them id think unless they want to end up in court.

Regarding clawback, they cant do it, its up to the individual if they believe theyve been treated fairly the past few days ie getting to go home several hours before finish time to maybe not cut off if it means staying out an extra hour or 2 on Monday/Tuesday and not booking it as OT to get it clear.
Personally, i dont mind going over a little to clear for "free" next week as in our office we have been sent home very early, so i believe its fair to give something back (and ill still be way ahead on the deal hours wise) I understand some people have commitments and cant do it, id say its a personal issue and what you believe as fair yourself whether youre prepared to stay out and complete it for "free" next week, theres certainly no one who will be able to enforce it legally.
I think if everyone turned around and said "we are going to stick to our contracted hours and wont stay out" then next time it snowed your manager is more justified in just keeping everyone in the office all day... I mean if I were manager this is how I would feel, if people would rather stick to the contracted hours then fine, you dont need to do anything, those of you who like getting to go home early when it snows *may* want to think about it.

On the flip side of that, is the business having an expectation of staff to attend during a red weather warning, even going as far as to say those within 2 miles or less should walk in. During a weather warning where a "risk to life" is genuine! In a situation where the mail centre that feeds the DO is closed and no mail is getting through, why would they not just close office and advise people not to travel? They put peoples welfare and lives at risk (not hyperbole, that is what the warning constituted), for no reason. People were threatened with losing pay if they did not attend.

Now, this was followed by sending people home early that day and on the 2 following days. So I take your point. However, 2 of those days it was clear that there was not going to be ANY work for any staff to do anyway, so why ask them to risk travelling? I tell you what, regardless of the fact we have been sent home early, the attitude I have seen over the past couple of days regarding peoples welfare from management has disgusted me and means there is absolutely no danger whatsoever I will be giving them anything but the bare minimum next week. Have a bit more respect for people and it would go along way!

fair point,and once again, RM has no real policies in place regarding weather like this, so the DOMs seem to not be able to tell people the day before not to bother coming in and always have to assess it each morning

[POSTMAN]

Sorry if people think this has already been covered here but I'm still REALLY unclear about whether RM can legally claw back hours from us posties, and was hoping that forumites on here could provide absolute clarity? Is there a national agreement on this, or is it down to the discretion of each depot's manager how to treat this situation?

Our depot's delivery people were told to go home yesterday and today, and it looks like managers may have already deducted from our overtime sheets some or all of the snow-day shortfall (via. overtime hours already accrued through this last week). Alternatively they may be looking at clawing it back through overtime next week.

What are the up to date RM and CWU documents that cover snow days? Are the two parties in agreement on this, so that there is a clear written statement on whether or not snow-day hours can be clawed back?

Lots of forum messages on here say that RM can't not pay us if we made it into work and then got sent home, and that they can't claw back the time. I have read Dave Long's letter that states:

'There is no provision within the Pay & Modernisation Agreement for the clawback of any time as a result of what is tantamount to an 'act of God' i.e. the severe weather conditions that the UK is currently experiencing', and:

'We have had further reports that some Managers are attempting to have our members take annual leave, make good the time, or even in some cases Special Leave 'C' (unpaid) where they could not attend work through no fault of their own. Once again, our representatives should be clear that this has not been agreed with the Postal Department at CWU HQ'

BUT - is there anything crystal clear in writing, from the Royal Mail and/or CWU, that can be used to refute attempts to claw back time when we've been sent home on safety grounds? I cant believe there isnt something in black and white, at a national level, that covers how this situation be treated?

Thanks in advance!

They can't take off overtime already earn't!
Have you a rep there, or access to a rep, it should be fairly easy to sort.

In plain english as per in this thread previously...
Manager: Go home now if you want and you will have to make the time up (claw back hrs) or else sit here and get paid.
Manager: Go home now and you won't have to make the time up.(Get conformation from the manager)
You: I wanna go home I ain't sitting here all day.(Management have the right to dock you/ask you to make time up)

[Celgar]

As with most stuff in RM every DO office is run in a slightly different way. If you get a different/cover DOM in the office it may be run in another way.

[The Postman]

Ive been on annual leave this week, by my calculations I’m owed 2 days holiday back

Why? Have you been sick?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

If no work is available why would Royal Mail pay you, you name any company who would pay their employees for doing nothing you won't be able to do.

We are all paid to WORK 39 hours a week, why shouldn't Royal Mail expect 39 hours work back. No company would survive if we all went home early paid for doing nothing.

Because the staff were willing to stay at work till finish time, but they were dismissed and sent home.

If there is no work Royal Mail can still ask you to remain at work, they voluntarily didn't and instead dismissed their employees. No clawback is required, and Royal Mail have no legal basis to expect people to work for nothing because of "Force Majeure" or "An Act of God"

If they were advised they could go home but would owe hours, then this is a voluntary arrangement and the manager would be able to claw back hours.

Also, you cannot, by law, retrospectively withdraw Overtime. If its been work in the expectation of being paid then its unlawful deduction of wages.


Also as someone who has worked in a Managerial role elsewhere, I would state that more is to be gained from staff members if you ask for extra effort in such conditions and reward them accordingly. Demanding compliance, instead of encouraging extra effort will only entrench and strengthen poor attendance, bad attitude and lazy production.

Once again we have managers acting without a proper understanding of the law, without any people skills and worse in defiance of an agreement that we have not yet endorsed. Any manager acting in this manner may have unwittingly helped cause a rejection of the agreement by Union members.

http://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/if-an-empl ... ees/91468/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If an Employer has to temporarily close their business premises at short notice and there is no work available for its employees as a result this is called a period of lay-off. During a lay-off you are entitled to receive normal pay

[TrueBlueTerrier]

If no work is available why would Royal Mail pay you, you name any company who would pay their employees for doing nothing you won't be able to do.

A little something called THE LAW

[Wild Rover]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43272396" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scottish ministers are considering action against employers for docking the wages of staff who could not make it to work because of the bad weather.