NewPostieUK wrote:
Full time contracts are offered on seniority. Someone who has been there 4 years would get the chance before him.
They shouldn't really be. they should be offered to those actually doing the hours regularly
Wrong, seniority is the blunt method used, but is the only way you can stop management favouring those who 'help' things along more by being totally compliant to requests and have no other life. In all fairness, decent managers (who are like hen's teeth in RM) would have some kind of rotation system. Quick sorters sometimes appear quick because they are coming in early.
Also, those doing overtime regularly are the reason full time contracts are offered so rarely.
No it isn't.
Full time contracts aren't being offered because the business is changing. It's no longer one in when one leaves anymore.
I've been here nearly 20 years now and there has always been plenty of overtime done by part time workers. I used to do plenty myself. But when a full timer left on a Saturday I was made up on the monday. That doesn't happen anymore.
If everyone stopped doing overtime then yes they may be forced to make people full time but that is not the reason. Overtime has always been done
clashcityrocker wrote:It depends on what the operational need is.
I have no idea what the early IPS is in your office but if it was for example 4 - 6 then how could a part timer who starts at 9.30 do that overtime unless they lived next door to the DO and could go home between 6 and 9.30?
Or do they want to be paid from 4 - 9.30 when operationally there is only a need to add 2 hours to the indoor operation and not 5h30?
If they added the 2 hours from 7.30 to 9.30 to accommodate the p/t member of staff it may mean the IPS over running, people getting out late and either claiming extended or cutting off?
I may not have been clear in my first post. The lad in question is already in at the same time as full timers. He just doesn't have a full time contract.
So he's working 39 hours. With 9 hours or whatever it is made up of overtime on top of his usual 30ish that his contract is.
There's then say 3/4 hours a day early ips. 1 hour each for 3/4 people. He has been doing this too. But one guy has come back and basically said he shouldn't be doing it saying It's full time overtime and he's already getting his overtime by doing pt-ft hours. He knows full well we haven't had any ft contracts handed out for at least 2 years so he wants this lad handicapped by that.
If you had an aggregate list of overtime in order to ensure the overtime was fairly distributed, then it would seem he wouldn't be able to sign for the early IPS as he is already getting other overtime.
The societies of consumption and squandering of material resources are incompatible with the idea of economic growth and a clean planet.
IF there is an argument for this overtime then it could be allocated based on the high/low system. In this case the PTer may lose out as they are already doing 9 hours overtime. This depends on whether they and the FTer are working day off etc as well. It should be for the manager to decide in accordance to fair rules.
Celtic Postman wrote:What is it with some guys on here with their opinions being thrown out without the relevant facts.
Bigal says " if anything a part timer should be allowed to make his hours up to full time before a full timer get these hours and a disagreement can be put in for this through the area rep as this is victimisation for part time staff"
Wrong... Everyone is entitled to the same access to overtime on an equal basis. Everyone has a basic contracted hours and neither FT or PT should be given OT in an unfair allocation, for example, he / she to make their hours up to FT before a FT should get any.
Celgar then says "Sounds like the guy who has just come back from long term sick should be laid off. The union tends to defend these kind of people though so it won't be easy.
How can you come to that assumption when you don't even know anything about the guy or his health history?
Some guys here want to get a life and stop stirring things up that they know nothing about just to throw their tuppence in.
I was referring more to the comment about the other guy being a 'nasty piece of work' but I didn't make myself clear. In the DO I work most of the posties don't want overtime and will avoid it if at all possible. I guess if everyone in an office wants overtime there is going to be squabbling and bad feeling.
The views I express here are mine alone and do not represent the views of Royal Mail Group.
The O/T kings and runners make up the early ips crew or the Breakfast Club as they're known in the office. Early IPS needs looking at as, oddly enough, these guys have their mech trays and some packets done when I walk in. There is either not enough IPS to do or too many people on the gravy train.
"A third of the world's farmland is now useless due to soil degradation, yet we still keep producing mouths to feed. And what's you answer to that? Energy saving lightbulbs?"
joewyan wrote:IF there is an argument for this overtime then it could be allocated based on the high/low system. In this case the PTer may lose out as they are already doing 9 hours overtime. This depends on whether they and the FTer are working day off etc as well. It should be for the manager to decide in accordance to fair rules.
The problem is that no full time contracts are being given out. So these new lads coming in on part time contracts are always going to be hampered.
We knew when we started Just how long we would wait for a full time contract based on where we was on seniority and when someone was leaving. It took me 6 months. Some guys have been waiting 6 years or more.
The part time guys now are doing full time jobs but it's just the contract they don't have.
So for example if a guy starts on a 20 hour contract and gets asked to do full time hours that week he'd be doing 19 hours extra overtime. So by your example he wouldn't be able to do anymore until the full timer has done 19 hours. So you're effectively limiting all part timers to 39 hours.
joewyan wrote:IF there is an argument for this overtime then it could be allocated based on the high/low system. In this case the PTer may lose out as they are already doing 9 hours overtime. This depends on whether they and the FTer are working day off etc as well. It should be for the manager to decide in accordance to fair rules.
The problem is that no full time contracts are being given out. So these new lads coming in on part time contracts are always going to be hampered.
We knew when we started Just how long we would wait for a full time contract based on where we was on seniority and when someone was leaving. It took me 6 months. Some guys have been waiting 6 years or more.
The part time guys now are doing full time jobs but it's just the contract they don't have.
So for example if a guy starts on a 20 hour contract and gets asked to do full time hours that week he'd be doing 19 hours extra overtime. So by your example he wouldn't be able to do anymore until the full timer has done 19 hours. So you're effectively limiting all part timers to 39 hours.
Yes I agree it’s a bit harsh potentially, I am myself a 30 hour a week part timer who supplements my income with a good amount of overtime each week but equally I joined as a 22.5 hour employee 7 years ago and could afford to be on that many hours or I wouldn’t have taken the position. Yes I like the overtime but could afford to live without it. Therefore part timers know what hours they are on when they take a job and nothing is said about being made full time without x amount of years so why should they get overtime over a full timer who wants to do more. Ultimately all anyone can do is the 69 hour weekly total so this allows for part timers to do more overtime at the end of the day to achieve that if they want.
joewyan wrote:IF there is an argument for this overtime then it could be allocated based on the high/low system. In this case the PTer may lose out as they are already doing 9 hours overtime. This depends on whether they and the FTer are working day off etc as well. It should be for the manager to decide in accordance to fair rules.
The problem is that no full time contracts are being given out. So these new lads coming in on part time contracts are always going to be hampered.
We knew when we started Just how long we would wait for a full time contract based on where we was on seniority and when someone was leaving. It took me 6 months. Some guys have been waiting 6 years or more.
The part time guys now are doing full time jobs but it's just the contract they don't have.
So for example if a guy starts on a 20 hour contract and gets asked to do full time hours that week he'd be doing 19 hours extra overtime. So by your example he wouldn't be able to do anymore until the full timer has done 19 hours. So you're effectively limiting all part timers to 39 hours.
Yes I agree it’s a bit harsh potentially, I am myself a 30 hour a week part timer who supplements my income with a good amount of overtime each week but equally I joined as a 22.5 hour employee 7 years ago and could afford to be on that many hours or I wouldn’t have taken the position. Yes I like the overtime but could afford to live without it. Therefore part timers know what hours they are on when they take a job and nothing is said about being made full time without x amount of years so why should they get overtime over a full timer who wants to do more. Ultimately all anyone can do is the 69 hour weekly total so this allows for part timers to do more overtime at the end of the day to achieve that if they want.
Everyone starts as a part timer though. So that could be said for everyone.
Kingeric you say everyone starts has a p/timer not sure how long you have worked there but at least 95% of people I work with didn’t start as part time it’s only in recent years this as crept in
Driver74 wrote:Kingeric you say everyone starts has a p/timer not sure how long you have worked there but at least 95% of people I work with didn’t start as part time it’s only in recent years this as crept in
I started 24 years ago and was on about 19 hours a week, took me 5 years and a move to another office to get a full time leave reserve job. Every person I've known has started on s pt contract. Back then though all jobs where advertised to the full area not just the office it was in so there was more chance of upping your hours, a few I worked with even managed to move into the mailcentre on the easy collection and distribution duties...wish I had
Driver74 wrote:Kingeric you say everyone starts has a p/timer not sure how long you have worked there but at least 95% of people I work with didn’t start as part time it’s only in recent years this as crept in
Almost 20 years ago now. When I started everyone started on pt as everyone did one delivery.
Only ft postmen did 2nd delivery. I think I started on 18 hours or something like that. Then after around 6 months a full timer left and I got made full time to do his 2nd delivery.
Everyone was in at the same time then if I remember right. All full timers were on the sorting then they sorted their walk and part timers sorted their own walk and delivered it then went home.
Driver74 wrote:Kingeric you say everyone starts has a p/timer not sure how long you have worked there but at least 95% of people I work with didn’t start as part time it’s only in recent years this as crept in
RM nowadays want every DO to have as many part timers as they can fit in. All the posties in our DO bar the latest recruit have either originally started as full time or were upgraded to full time a while after arriving at our office by the DOM/Union rep. In our offices experience part time jobs as RM would like them to operate don't work as there is no time to prep the rounds for them. In recent times a couple have dropped down to four day week by personal choice as they are close to or a bit over the point where they could retire. The latest recruit is classed as part time but is on a four day week so is still doing the job 'properly'. When I started being a postie twenty years ago there were no part time jobs.
The views I express here are mine alone and do not represent the views of Royal Mail Group.
joewyan wrote:Yes that’s true but why would you take a part time job if you can’t afford to live on those hours?
Gosh, let's think . . .
Maybe because you have been instructed by the JobCentre to get any job that is going?
Maybe because working 20 hours for RM is as good as 30 hours at min. wage and so you changed jobs so you could in fact do more overtime, which you needed to do anyway on your min.wage job to make ends meet?
Maybe because crap as RM often is, it's actually miles better as a job than most of the 'self-employed' jobs out there that are really just licensed corporate exploitation.
If you're on 39 hours at RM you almost certainly don't need your overtime as desperately as someone on 20 hours probably does. You may want it as desperately, but that's a different thing.
Morally speaking nobody on 39 hours should get any overtime unless all the part-timers have declined it because heaps of the p/t staff actually need it.