COMPARING 9/9/07 DOC TO NOW!!

Glenno · Post by **Glenno** » 30 Oct 2007, 19:31

dvbuk55 wrote:
waterpistol wrote:so when the ballot papers for pensions come out we'll have the chance to vote no won't we as will our colleagues in other businesses in RM group. So there will be no need to say i told you so because i'll also vote no against any pensions proposal changes.

Just heard from the horses mouth if you vote yes then RM pension reform is part of the deal. I fear you've been hoodwinked.

Not really hoodwinked - the union stated it had been decoupled but in fact had been rubber stamped - check the joint statement, it's all there.[/quote]

GOOD CALL sometimes i dont think people can READ DIGEST & TALK (blinkered by propoganda)

strangler · Post by **strangler** » 31 Oct 2007, 17:22

I`ll certainly be voting NO having heard all about the pensions thing being pushed through regardless. Yet again today I heard someone say they`ll vote yes to the deal "Whatever is in it". Oh dear

tenpole tudorsack · Post by **tenpole tudorsack** » 31 Oct 2007, 17:24

strangler wrote:I`ll certainly be voting NO having heard all about the pensions thing being pushed through regardless. Yet again today I heard someone say they`ll vote yes to the deal "Whatever is in it". Oh dear

Let's hope the waverers will attend branch meetings before voting (providing they're given the right guidance, of course)!

strangler · Post by **strangler** » 31 Oct 2007, 17:46

I`d like to know what Lovejoys view is on the deal regarding pensions in light of Jafferpants saying that we`ll all be in the 'care' scheme by april08. Not wishing to provoke an argument I`m genuinely interested in Lovejoys view on this as he`s one of the few that have put a reasoned thought out case for a yes vote. You both have all respect from me as you have put some very useful inside info on here which is much appreciated.

Post by **arsenalbob** » 31 Oct 2007, 18:39

i've read through the agreement twice and all i can see regarding the pensions is that both sides have agreed to a consultation period and after that a ballot put to all members concerned. i can't see anywhere that actual changes have already been agreed, or has jafferpants got some sort of reliable crystal ball

Post by **dvbuk55** » 31 Oct 2007, 18:55

arsenalbob wrote:i've read through the agreement twice and all i can see regarding the pensions is that both sides have agreed to a consultation period and after that a ballot put to all members concerned. i can't see anywhere that actual changes have already been agreed, or has jafferpants got some sort of reliable crystal ball

The union position for which briefings are to be held tomorrow is:

The pension issue was always going to be difficult. It would have been an abdication of responsibility for the union to have sought to stand aside from the difficult decisions which need to be taken to ensure the ongoing viability of both the scheme and the business, but an acknowledgment that Â£850 million per annum cost is unsustainable leads inevitably to the conclusion that either employee contributions must rise or benefits reduce or both.

What we have achieved:

- The union has been completely successful in the key aim of fully protecting past service benefits.

- The proposal offers a way of considerably mitigating the effect of moving the normal retirement age to 65. Members will have various options, including taking full pension on service accrued before 1st April 2010 whilst continuing to contribute. The right to retire at 60 is retained.

- The Career Average Revalued Earnings (CARE) scheme going forward remains a good defined benefit pension scheme and the issue of indexation will become part of the unions bargaining agenda. Existing scheme benefits and accrual rates remain unchanged.

- There is an opportunity to negotiate on the form, governance, and contribution rate of a DC scheme and attempt to create a route into a final salary scheme for new starters.

Taken together this represents a significant major improvement for the union and its members in comparison to both the leaked company proposal of July 2007 and the proposal previously linked to the pay offer. There is no doubt that this could not have been achieved without the determination and sacrifice of CWU members.

It certainly means a lot to those who are in the scheme now and new starters. The net result will be a saving to RM of 1.6Billion and that is going to come out of the pension fund. Basically the deal is the same as the managers got but without the incentive of pensionable bonuses. The fact that previous contributions have been saved is a crock really because legally they cannot be touched.

Glenno · Post by **Glenno** » 31 Oct 2007, 18:55

Hi arsenalbob do the job right if you could only have listened to THAT CALL in this forum it would have answered ALL u r questions it was under the heading " have a listen to this " i believe listening to my bros &sisters they have changed PIN number

Post by **arsenalbob** » 31 Oct 2007, 19:09

apologies to jaffer and the rest, but this is different to the agreement we've got posted on our wall, also i haven't got the patience to listen to 45 minutes of bollox, so thanks, i'll take your word for it that they are (intending) to shaft us on the pensions.

Edward Hunter · Post by **Edward Hunter** » 31 Oct 2007, 19:22

We had a wtl on tuesday, and from the way our dom was reading it, pensions are very much included. We even have a help line number on the board so we can call and find out how the deal will affect your own personal pension! So definatly a done deal as far as RM are concerned.

Whos telling the truth? PENSION- DEAL OR NO DEAL?

Post by **dvbuk55** » 31 Oct 2007, 19:29

Edward Hunter wrote:We had a wtl on tuesday, and from the way our dom was reading it, pensions are very much included. We even have a help line number on the board so we can call and find out how the deal will affect your own personal pension! So definatly a done deal as far as RM are concerned. Whos telling the truth? PENSION- DEAL OR NO DEAL?

I don't want to appear any more cynical than needs be BUT I think that the pensions, D2D et al have already been decided upon and they have been rubber stamped. That is the price RM demanded for the CWU to be, tacitly at least involved, in "negotiation" - though if they are going to roll over every single time we may as well save Â£3 a week.

Edward Hunter · Post by **Edward Hunter** » 31 Oct 2007, 19:40

I don't want to appear any more cynical than needs be BUT I think that the pensions, D2D et al have already been decided upon and they have been rubber stamped. That is the price RM demanded for the CWU to be, tacitly at least involved, in "negotiation" - though if they are going to roll over every single time we may as well save Â£3 a week.[/quote]

As a union man i`d really like to say you are wrong.......................................

Post by **dvbuk55** » 31 Oct 2007, 19:49

Edward Hunter wrote:I don't want to appear any more cynical than needs be BUT I think that the pensions, D2D et al have already been decided upon and they have been rubber stamped. That is the price RM demanded for the CWU to be, tacitly at least involved, in "negotiation" - though if they are going to roll over every single time we may as well save Â£3 a week.

As a union man i`d really like to say you are wrong.......................................

[/quote]

You'd really like to say I am wrong BUT I'm not wrong. The union touted that they had managed to decouple the pension, that was followed by a statement by RM that they had reached agreement over the pension, which was then followed by a joint statement saying they HAD agreed. It's not only RM who are the liars. The CWU have agreed to the closure of the existing scheme under the timetable scheduled by RM, they are saying they have protected the existing benefits but in fact they are legally protected.

IWW Fellow Worker · Post by **IWW Fellow Worker** » 31 Oct 2007, 19:51

Edward Hunter wrote:We had a wtl on tuesday, and from the way our dom was reading it, pensions are very much included. We even have a help line number on the board so we can call and find out how the deal will affect your own personal pension! So definatly a done deal as far as RM are concerned. Whos telling the truth? PENSION- DEAL OR NO DEAL?

Any word on D2D Ed?

Glenno · Post by **Glenno** » 31 Oct 2007, 20:06

WHAT DO YOU THINK? DO YOU THINKITS A DONE DEAL OR DO YOU THINK ITS WORTH FIGHTING FOR????????????????? everybody must come to a decision on their own and then VOTE

Edward Hunter · Post by **Edward Hunter** » 31 Oct 2007, 20:25

Any word on D2D Ed?[/quote]

D2D still to be agreed as far as i understand from what our dom read mate. dvbuk55 will tell you different though and i feel his cospiracy theory may well be right.