I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[tpost]

I shall return to this thread after its all said and done. I suspect this solidarity being spoken of will soon go out the door when you stiff over the new joiners, like been done before, so you can protect yourselves. Rank Hypocrisy.

Anyone would think you lot were fighting apartheid or civil rights with the rhetoric being spouted ere. Its the 21st century not the 70s/80s. Do catch up or you will be left behind.

To the fellas chatting about burning Fivers and Gone toting Americans. What? Have you lost the plot? and as for the veiled threat of being remembered as a strike breaker. That I will be the few and you the many. Just more mob rule outdated nasty attitudes.

There is literally nothing more to add to this debate. I get it, you think im some form of anti democratic facist because I don't support you as I am quite happy to except the changes we are facing.

The trouble with a forum such as this is it attracts people who tend to think the same way and when a different opinion is offered it is not accepted or looked at with an open mind.

[glfp]

I shall return to this thread after its all said and done. I suspect this solidarity being spoken of will soon go out the door when you stiff over the new joiners, like been done before, so you can protect yourselves. Rank Hypocrisy.

Anyone would think you lot were fighting apartheid or civil rights with the rhetoric being spouted ere. Its the 21st century not the 70s/80s. Do catch up or you will be left behind.

To the fellas chatting about burning Fivers and Gone toting Americans. What? Have you lost the plot? and as for the veiled threat of being remembered as a strike breaker. That I will be the few and you the many. Just more mob rule outdated nasty attitudes.

There is literally nothing more to add to this debate. I get it, you think im some form of anti democratic facist because I don't support you as I am quite happy to except the changes we are facing.

too many wannabee politicians like the CWU momentum boys at wimbledon

[Delbhoy]

Been quite a interesting post hearing everyone's opinions on urban pirates view. To think we are going to get a lump sum and 1.5% is great has dingo,s previous post not been read properly, to get that there is quite a list and it's not just about later starts and pensions. But if you thinks that's all good then vote no but when it hits the fan if these proposals are put in place then what.

[Martin Walsh]

This is a bizarre the debate in that it is the CWU who are insisting to the end of the two tier pension scheme and it Royal Mail Mail who are resisting and currently still putting two pensions schemes on the table with DC one remaining as it is.

Equally not everyone who is in the DC scheme started after 2008. The new government law of auto enrolling individuals into an employer pension scheme meant anyone who was in receipt of their DB scheme and still working were auto enrolled into the DC scheme that is why there are 13 thousand on the nursary rate of 1% employee contributions and 1% Royal Mail contributions. The union has made clear we will strike to get one pension scheme and we will.

On new entrants the union have rejected the new entrant’s inferior conditions and we believe it is a breach of the Agenda for Growth Agreement and creates a two tier work force.

Yet a couple of posters seem too be citing these issues why they won’t be supporting a strike.

Is it me ? Or is this not bizarre in that the union who is fighting for pension equality , pay equality and a better deal for part timers is being criticised and the Royal Mail who want two pensions schemes , different pay rates for new starters as well as a default 17:00 finish time and to continue to treat part timers with contempt seem to be back by the very people who are critical of the CWU for not progressing the issues earlier.

Anyway got better things too do Meeting the members last push to get a massive yes vote

[clashcityrocker]

I get it, you think im some form of anti democratic facist because I don't support you as I am quite happy to except the changes we are facing.

No. I think you are a misguided individual who has yet to be convinced that there is power in a union.
Jet is the anti-democratic fascist.

[jetblack]

Jet is the anti-democratic fascist.

I don't tend to report posts cos i know that the mods have enough on their plates, I don't like 'telling tales' and I'm big enough and daft enough to take it on the chin.

But you are going to have to qualify that comment. If you can't (and we both know you can't), what credibility your posts may have had have just taken a big hit IMHO.

[banner]

I'm not sure if UrbanPirate and co believe in the right to strike.........

[chrisj]

Dingo might think it is bizarre that some of us are sceptical on the Union zeal and ability to harmonise the pensions. Personally, I think the chance of that happening is less than 0. I also think it is like a shelf filler - an enticer - and it will be one of the first things to go... I wonder whether it might even be dropped without the usual bribe; especially of the d guards.

That is my true belief - not a wind up - just a realistic view of things.

I shall be back to apologise if we get pension harmony that puts the current DC members at parity with the cure DB members.

As for the politics involved in Trade Unionism; it is simultaneously not the same as general party politics. The workers here have no choice but the CWU and the Employer and Employment laws will not allow for workers to be treated differently depending on which Union they belong to.

If Union membership is not about collective bargaining then we should be able to join as many Unions as possible because all the Unions will be doing is trouble shooting...

I totally understand where UrbanPirate is coming from; in fact, I find it hard to understand why some people ncould not understand his first post and just take it as it is.

Newer members are just in a different place. They feel they are well paid (so what if pay rise is linked to productivity - big deal..), what of later starts (many of them start later anyway - at least compared to some in my office whose body clock still works like 15 years back), pensions (DC - good contributions, not jealous of DBers and no chance of a change), what else?

Basically UrbanPirate and some others have no fight to pick and this is not general politics or politics of envy or Corbyn versus Everyone else...

[chrisj]

I should also stress that I am happy with the pay rise but not happy with it being a lump sum but that will not be a sticking issue for both sides.

So what if the union secured a bigger pay rise - it will not make that much different on the general scheme of things. But I will take it just like the many keyboard socialist warriors and union leaders that railed against Privatisation but happily took free shares. Where was that fight?

[clashcityrocker]

Jet is the anti-democratic fascist.

But you are going to have to qualify that comment.

You lack the basic quality of a trade unionist - and that is compassion.
You want to expel from the union anyone who doesn't live up to your ideal.
People break strikes for any number of reasons - some ideological, some financial.
When a trade union calls its members out on strikes, it is asking them to make a sacrifice and in some cases that sacrifice is too great for them to make.
If you don't know the sort of financial mess some people can get in to through no fault of their own, I suggest you need to get out more.

I believe the fire brigade expects their striking members to spend the whole of their shift on picket line duty in full uniform, even if it is a night shift.
Why don't we adopt that as our standard?
And expel all those who simply regard a strike day as a day off or they turn up for a token hour in their jeans and t-shirt before going off to play golf or watch Bargain Hunt.
How small is your union going to be?

Earlier in the post Dingo lists the achievements of the CWU - and all of that was gained without needing to expel people who didn't toe the ideological line.
Elsewhere you talk of a carrot and stick approach. Who exactly are you to be threatening anyone with a stick ?(even a metaphorical one)

I would rather stand on a picket line with a reformed strikebreaker than with someone like you.
Your desire to start expelling people from the CWU has nothing to do with advancing the cause of trade unionism and everything to do with attempting to demonstrate your own moral superiority. You are a prig.
And as to the credibility of my posts

[Dorset Plodder]

The trouble with a forum such as this is it attracts people who tend to think the same way and when a different opinion is offered it is not accepted or looked at with an open mind.

I can appreciate why you feel this way tpost. I believe some people just react more aggressively to a different point of view. Some do not express themselves well in this type of forum. Look at the amount of misread/misunderstood texts! I'm all for hearing someone else's point of view, I agree that we're all entitled to an opinion. Perhaps this Forum does attract those who have a dislike of the way Royal Mail is managed, and those who mismanage it? A lot of us have developed this attitude through bitter experience. I think the problem is some people feel they have to "Win" the conversation and convert the other guy to their way of thinking.

We've all been given a vote, it's our choice how we use it. Like the General Election, Local Elections and the Referendum, I'd just like EVERYONE to vote then we'd get a truly reflective result. This Vote is going to have a Bigger Return than the General Election and I hope at the end of it Royal Mail will know the true feeling of discontent amongst their workforce. If you, and those of a similar view, are happy with your lot then vote NO mate. I'm sure it won't make that much difference to the end result.

[jetblack]

...

You said I was anti democratic and a fascist. I asked you to qualify that statement. You haven't - rather you've launched another gratuitous attack without foundation. I mean - who are you exactly to tell me that I lack compassion ? Why ? Cos I don't want to give a strikebreaker a big hug. And that makes me a 'prig' ?

Let me try another approach and lets see if you can comment on this without personal attack.
The union could be seen as a conglomeration of relations between people who have a common goal. In some ways we might compare it to a marriage - the point being that when you enter into the relationship/contract/marriage there are certain rules/vows - and you relinquish your own selfish desires for the betterment of the family unit/union.
Lets say that Mrs. Jetblack shows no faith in me and has an affair outside of marriage. If this were to occur I would boot Mrs. JB out the door if I ever found out. You clearly wouldn't. You would scratch your head for a few months wondering what you did wrong and try to treat her better in the future in the hope that she doesn't stray again. Oh, and you'd talk. Good for you - you are a better man than me. More compassionate etc.
However - Mrs JB holds exactly the same view as myself. That is, if I were ever to break the marriage vow no amount of heartfelt hugs would stop her from booting me out the door. There would be no second chances. I do not begrudge her this stance - I completely concur.
The important bit is that it is precisely those attitudes to infidelity that help keep us on the straight and narrow. That, and love. We are happy - we work well together. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. It is the knowledge that there would be real repercussions to our actions that circumscribe (for want of a better word) our decisions.

What you are arguing for isn't democracy at all - its a free for all. Fishtank upthread compared it to US style alt right libertarianism. I know what he's saying and he's right - but I'd more compare it to an anarchist jungle. The war of all against all. Thomas Hobbes talked about it in Leviathon.
There must be rules and those rules must be upheld. It comes over to you like I'm being heartless and cold, that I lack compassion - its not that at all. I can see whats necessary in this situation re. strikebreakers, and that is that they should be expelled from the union. I don't think that you are seeing the problem clearly TBH - and thats why we are in the bizarre situation whereby you are choosing to attack me rather than a strikebreaker. Thats been the story of the left for the last 40 years - so I suppose it shouldn't surprise me. Internal feuding rather than coming together against our real opponents.

I don't like to give too much away about my i.d. online but I'll tell you this much. I was born and brought up in a pit village. My ancestors were all miners going back as far as I have been able to trace to the 1850's. I would have been one too no doubt were it not for the fact that Thatcher laid waste to industrial Britain. I witnessed first hand the 1984 miners strike and its effects. I witnessed people struggling financially alright - and it wasn't the 'strikebreakers' - it was the striking miners who were fighting to keep communities alive, who believed in something bigger than just 'me, me ,me'.
The strikebreakers in that dispute thought their jobs were safe - so they sold their fellow workers down the river. They were wrong of course - theyultimately lost their jobs as well - just like the NUM told them they would. But they thought they'd be alright jack. They thought they knew better.
They didn't - what their actions did ensure was that this country would be enslaved to neo-liberalism for a generation and that their very own communities would become hotbeds of crime and drug abuse. The damage that the actions of these selfish idiots brought about has been immense - not only for themselves but for the whole country. And you want me to have a cup of tea with them and talk it through.

This isn't a game of sudoku - this is very serious stuff. This is our lives, this goes to the core of all that we hold dear, our beliefs, who we are. Sorry if I feel strongly about it - but TBH I wish that one or two more of you felt a bit more passionate about these things, particularly if you hold a position within the union. Or is the union for you some sort of social club ? What is it going to take to bring it home to you ?



Anyhow, its a shame you wouldn't want to stand with me on a picket line Clash. I'm a decent bloke - you know, I believe in stuff, more than just 'I'll do as I please'. I guarantee you this - I won't be the one bangin' your wife behind your back and making a cuckold of your forgiving arse .
But I suppose if I'm being honest I wouldn't really want to stand with you either. And until you can qualify what it is in what I've just wrote (and wrote previously) that makes me a fascist and undemocratic this is only going to end in divorce old son.

[UrbanPirate]

What the f**k did I just read :crazy:

[UrbanPirate]

As for the miners. Do you honestly believe Britain could have remained globally competitive? We should thank our lucky stars the countries economy was shifted when it was else we would all be up s**t creek. Thatcher, like her or loath her saw it coming. Massively off topic. sorry. It really doesn't bare any comparison other than the word strike. Plus it was 30 years ago. Get over it, Its 2017.

and seriously, stop with these analogies.

[postslippete]

I don't hold it against Urban Pirate that he has different views on Royal Mail to anyone else. Maybe he's previously worked in a sweatbox on 12 hour shifts, on minimum wage with no breaks and compared to that job, Royal Mail is a fantastic place to work!

Maybe the OP is really not as short-sighted as he appears to be