I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[glfp]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

EXACTLY !

[jetblack]

You keep banging on about democracy but your argument to anyone that doesn't agree with you is to be purged. How very democratic.

No mate - my argument is not about that at all. And its not about whether anyone disagrees with me personally either (or you'd all be out of a job )
Its about the rules of the game. And the rules of this particular game are that when you enter into a social contract whereby you are granted representation according to your individual vote (voice), the contract implies that where your individual will is not reflected in the general will of the populace to which you have entered into that contract and who are also granted a vote (which it might on occasion) you then have to, for better or worse, subsume your own desires to those of the community into which you have willingly entered coalition. Its generally referred to as 'democracy', in one form or another.
Unless your interests are more aligned with the corporate elite that own RMG these days you should, all things being equal (and being of sound mind etc) generally find it to be the case that your interests coincide with those of your fellow workers - who, after all, are in exactly the same boat as yourself.

If you don't like it - f**k off.

4) I resigned from the Union today !

Good for you. Seriously. At least you are being honest. But you can of course see how a union needs someone like yourself in their ranks like they need a hole in the head.

Hey - if the CWU is successful will you still be happy to take the concessions your fellow workers have won for you ?
If you say no I will have so much respect for you.

[fishtank]

Good point.
We should be able to take the lump sum / pay rise !

The improved lump sum that union pressure has gained or the original offer?
If the union manages to improve any of the offer currently on the table including an improved DC scheme will you refuse that and actively campaign on here for "new starters" to do likewise. Would you surrender any gains the union manage to draw from royal mail as a result of strike action or are you just another hypocrite willing to pocket the gains without the sacrifice?

What if the union manages to secure an extension to the legally binding agreements, will you refuse that protection, can we franchise your job?

[postslippete]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

Well they do say once you lose your first hand, ye get hooked...

[glfp]

Good point.
We should be able to take the lump sum / pay rise !

The improved lump sum that union pressure has gained or the original offer?
If the union manages to improve any of the offer currently on the table including an improved DC scheme will you refuse that and actively campaign on here for "new starters" to do likewise. Would you surrender any gains the union manage to draw from royal mail as a result of strike action or are you just another hypocrite willing to pocket the gains without the sacrifice?

What if the union manages to secure an extension to the legally binding agreements, will you refuse that protection, can we franchise your job?

I'll also have to take the damage the "Union" may do with strikes at christmas !

I applied for a job with Royal Mail not the CWU.

Anyway off to watch some paint dry now "comrades"
Graham

[Chitchat]

If one of my colleagues walks across my picket line I don't think they should be expelled from my union.
Rather I think that I have failed in my role as a trade unionist to convince them that my arguments should prevail.

Rubbish.

They should be expelled. As Joan of Arc as it is of you to personally take it on the chin for the cause like that Clash, your chivalry is misplaced here old son.

The CWU and the trade union movement in general is a broad church - but first and foremost it is a democratic church.
Democracy doesn't just enshrine rights - because with those rights come responsibilities.
I don't mind putting up with teenagers that haven't quite got their head around the responsibilities side of that equation - after all, the human brain doesn't reach full maturity/development till around the age of 24 - but I'll be f****d if I'm going to carry a grown man that thinks he's being clever by skimming off the top of the sacrifice made by other men that are in exactly the same boat as he is.
I'm not only going to bring this up with the branch I may well bring it up with the Labour Party as well. Apparently the union may have grounds for expulsion under rule 14 - but then it may also be in breach of the strike breakers 'rights'. If the law is framed to protect the strike breaker in this situation then the law needs amending - and I'm sure the next Government would be more than happy to listen to questions re. the legitimacy of the legal protections offered to rogue self interested strike breakers.

The union do not own RM. That staff dont own RM. I will not be told by anyone other than my employer that im not aloud to work and even then it better be for good reason. How about we flip it and say anyone who does strike should then be fired when they eventually capitulate. Il happily be thrown out of the union if this is the attitude. Like someone said before, there are people not in the union who have whatever the union agree imposed on them wether they like it or not.

Why should I stirke, lose pay and potentially harm the business for an argument I do not believe in? For an offer than im willing to accept?

Unless of course you are all willing to strike for everyone on the DC pension to be given the same benefits being offered to pre 2008 staff? Then we can talk about solidarity.

Good point.
We should be able to take the lump sum / pay rise !

And then we get a better deal through collective bargaining will you be ok that we are on more money than you? Have a better pension than you? Will you be ok working to 18:00 every night when we go home at 14:30? Personally i couldnt care less how you voted or weather you strike or not! What i care about is everyone uses their vote and then the majority voice is heard!

[postslippete]

Anyway off to watch some paint dry now "comrades"
Graham

Is it in 50 shades by any chance?

[UrbanPirate]

You keep banging on about democracy but your argument to anyone that doesn't agree with you is to be purged. How very democratic.

No mate - my argument is not about that at all. And its not about whether anyone disagrees with me personally either (or you'd all be out of a job )
Its about the rules of the game. And the rules of this particular game are that when you enter into a social contract whereby you are granted representation according to your individual vote (voice), the contract implies that where your individual will is not reflected in the general will of the populace to which you have entered into that contract and who are also granted a vote (which it might on occasion) you then have to, for better or worse, subsume your own desires to those of the community into which you have willingly entered coalition. Its generally referred to as 'democracy', in one form or another.
Unless your interests are more aligned with the corporate elite that own RMG these days you should, all things being equal (and being of sound mind etc) generally find it to be the case that your interests coincide with those of your fellow workers - who, after all, are in exactly the same boat as yourself.

If you don't like it - f**k off.

4) I resigned from the Union today !

Good for you. Seriously. At least you are being honest. But you can of course see how a union needs someone like yourself in their ranks like they need a hole in the head.

Hey - if the CWU is successful will you still be happy to take the concessions your fellow workers have won for you ?
If you say no I will have so much respect for you.

Jesus. Do listen to yourself. A social contract? Whatever you've made up in your head is fine. You really do sound like a nasty piece of work.

Enjoy

[postmanpleb]

Divide & conquer

Up the pinks!

[Lincox]

I cannot understand a worker that is prepared to see his/her hourly rate of pay slashed and be happy that this is the best deal they are likely to get. Yes hourly rate slashed, as this is exactly what Royal Mail will be doing if you consider your employment package in terms of an hourly rate of pay for all of the benefits that you get, then effectively the slashing of your pension awards has a massive downward affect on that hourly rate of pay. Then take into account an inflation rate of circa 3%, you are seeing that real hourly rate of pay nosediving in excess of 10%. If you can afford such a drop in real earnings without even trying to challenge then you deserve to see your terms reaching the bottom of the pile.

[steve1873]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

That is the total opposite of democracy FFS!

[Lounge Lizard]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

That is the total opposite of democracy FFS!

Steve,
Yes, if 55% vote Conservative and 45% vote Labour in a General election then us 45% would be totally within our rights to not pay taxes to the Tory government as we don't like what they are offering.

[chrisj]

Does anyone here seriously think that the CWU and strike actions will ever result in the employees in the DC pension and new starters moving to a DB sort of pension (wages in retirement type as sort of proposed by CWU)?

I do not think a month of strikes will achieve or even months of strikes... If it the pension and risk is to much for RM will the current DB folks then we expect them to shell out even more...

It is time to decouple the pension debate as before because it is not a winner and it will be disingenuous to those posties in the DC scheme that have not got a clue that they cannot get much pension; maybe another 1% but they shall always be in the DC scheme.

This is false solidarity being expounded.

[UrbanPirate]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

That is the total opposite of democracy FFS!

Steve,
Yes, if 55% vote Conservative and 45% vote Labour in a General election then us 45% would be totally within our rights to not pay taxes to the Tory government as we don't like what they are offering.

Guys, just no. False analogy.


Your first mistake is thinking business is in any form Democratic. Its not.
Your second mistake is to think that the CWU have any legal basis to force me not to work. They do not.
Your third mistake is to think that I work for the CWU. Incorrect. I work for RM. RM works for its shareholders. Its shareholders want profits. Its RM who pays me, with those profits. Where as I pay the CWU to represent me! Perhaps not for long as the level of debate and intellect shown here by its members really does shine a light on it as an institution. Yeh they do some good, but they are also capable of doing damage. Which they will do now. Change averse, but businesses must change to maintain competitiveness.

People saying that people shouldn't be aloud the benefits the union get us if they don't support them. Well how about these same people should be the first to go if they do irreversible damage to the business due to this strike action? Sounds about right?

if 55% vote Conservative and 45% vote Labour in a General election then us 45% would be totally within our rights to not pay taxes to the Tory government as we don't like what they are offering.

You all need to get this analogy out of your heads because it doesn't compare.

[UrbanPirate]

A False analogy is an informal fallacy. It applies to inductive arguments. It is an informal fallacy because the error is about what the argument is about, and not the argument itself. An analogy proposes that two concepts which are similar (A and B) have a common relationship to some property.