I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[jetblack]

If one of my colleagues walks across my picket line I don't think they should be expelled from my union.
Rather I think that I have failed in my role as a trade unionist to convince them that my arguments should prevail.

Rubbish.

They should be expelled. As Joan of Arc as it is of you to personally take it on the chin for the cause like that Clash, your chivalry is misplaced here old son.

The CWU and the trade union movement in general is a broad church - but first and foremost it is a democratic church.
Democracy doesn't just enshrine rights - because with those rights come responsibilities.
I don't mind putting up with teenagers that haven't quite got their head around the responsibilities side of that equation - after all, the human brain doesn't reach full maturity/development till around the age of 24 - but I'll be f****d if I'm going to carry a grown man that thinks he's being clever by skimming off the top of the sacrifice made by other men that are in exactly the same boat as he is.
I'm not only going to bring this up with the branch I may well bring it up with the Labour Party as well. Apparently the union may have grounds for expulsion under rule 14 - but then it may also be in breach of the strike breakers 'rights'. If the law is framed to protect the strike breaker in this situation then the law needs amending - and I'm sure the next Government would be more than happy to listen to questions re. the legitimacy of the legal protections offered to rogue self interested strike breakers.

[Lounge Lizard]

Two things to pick up:

The Union is a closed shop and whether the member likes the Union or not, it is Union that RM recognises as the representative of the workers.
Collective bargaining means in or out of the Union, the postie is still bound by its decisions and agreement.

The way to operate in a one-party state is to join that party and try to influence things. It is not just about solidarity for everyone. Some no votes will also concentrate the minds of the Union officials.

Second, why continue to give a mandate to people that comes up with agreement that you will end up voting against? That is not right! It is like saying we should trust the likes of Tony Blair when he says we should get involved with the war in Syria...

Just because our boys are fighting a war does not mean we have to support the tenants of the war. And when the times comes to put the boys in harm's way again, we should not blindly give consent as before.

So stop saying people should leave the Union - we are not the army, it is a democracy and we cannot all agree and perhaps it is unhealthy to all agree. People need to chill - you get your YES vote and the fun starts. Buckle up!

Chris,
A Closed Shop is a place of work where all employees must belong to an agreed trade union.
You are therefore mistaken with your "The Union is a closed shop ......"

[jetblack]

DC members are losing nothing

Everything to gain.

[UrbanPirate]

If one of my colleagues walks across my picket line I don't think they should be expelled from my union.
Rather I think that I have failed in my role as a trade unionist to convince them that my arguments should prevail.

Rubbish.

They should be expelled. As Joan of Arc as it is of you to personally take it on the chin for the cause like that Clash, your chivalry is misplaced here old son.

The CWU and the trade union movement in general is a broad church - but first and foremost it is a democratic church.
Democracy doesn't just enshrine rights - because with those rights come responsibilities.
I don't mind putting up with teenagers that haven't quite got their head around the responsibilities side of that equation - after all, the human brain doesn't reach full maturity/development till around the age of 24 - but I'll be f****d if I'm going to carry a grown man that thinks he's being clever by skimming off the top of the sacrifice made by other men that are in exactly the same boat as he is.
I'm not only going to bring this up with the branch I may well bring it up with the Labour Party as well. Apparently the union may have grounds for expulsion under rule 14 - but then it may also be in breach of the strike breakers 'rights'. If the law is framed to protect the strike breaker in this situation then the law needs amending - and I'm sure the next Government would be more than happy to listen to questions re. the legitimacy of the legal protections offered to rogue self interested strike breakers.

The union do not own RM. That staff dont own RM. I will not be told by anyone other than my employer that im not aloud to work and even then it better be for good reason. How about we flip it and say anyone who does strike should then be fired when they eventually capitulate. Il happily be thrown out of the union if this is the attitude. Like someone said before, there are people not in the union who have whatever the union agree imposed on them wether they like it or not.

Why should I stirke, lose pay and potentially harm the business for an argument I do not believe in? For an offer than im willing to accept?

Unless of course you are all willing to strike for everyone on the DC pension to be given the same benefits being offered to pre 2008 staff? Then we can talk about solidarity.

[Nickvilla20]

If one of my colleagues walks across my picket line I don't think they should be expelled from my union.
Rather I think that I have failed in my role as a trade unionist to convince them that my arguments should prevail.

Rubbish.

They should be expelled. As Joan of Arc as it is of you to personally take it on the chin for the cause like that Clash, your chivalry is misplaced here old son.

The CWU and the trade union movement in general is a broad church - but first and foremost it is a democratic church.
Democracy doesn't just enshrine rights - because with those rights come responsibilities.
I don't mind putting up with teenagers that haven't quite got their head around the responsibilities side of that equation - after all, the human brain doesn't reach full maturity/development till around the age of 24 - but I'll be f****d if I'm going to carry a grown man that thinks he's being clever by skimming off the top of the sacrifice made by other men that are in exactly the same boat as he is.
I'm not only going to bring this up with the branch I may well bring it up with the Labour Party as well. Apparently the union may have grounds for expulsion under rule 14 - but then it may also be in breach of the strike breakers 'rights'. If the law is framed to protect the strike breaker in this situation then the law needs amending - and I'm sure the next Government would be more than happy to listen to questions re. the legitimacy of the legal protections offered to rogue self interested strike breakers.

The union do not own RM. That staff dont own RM. I will not be told by anyone other than my employer that im not aloud to work and even then it better be for good reason. How about we flip it and say anyone who does strike should then be fired when they eventually capitulate. Il happily be thrown out of the union if this is the attitude. Like someone said before, there are people not in the union who have whatever the union agree imposed on them wether they like it or not.

Why should I stirke, lose pay and potentially harm the business for an argument I do not believe in? For an offer than im willing to accept?

Unless of course you are all willing to strike for everyone on the DC pension to be given the same benefits being offered to pre 2008 staff? Then we can talk about solidarity.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion after all we live in a democracy.

I personally think the staff and Royal Mail will have to give something up in the long run or it will change ntinye to escalate.

What I don’t understand is why are you in the union and paying member at that?

We have offices at there bare bones they can’t even get people to fill the vacancies we have and it will only get worse at least the union representatives are trying to fight our corner.

[UrbanPirate]

Im in the union because I want to have the ability to have a say wether I like what they are doing or not. As wether you are in the union or not they are representing you and cutting deals on your behalf wether you want them to or not.

Just because I think they are wrong or pushing to hard now, doesnt mean I havnt backed them in the past or wont again in the future.

They also offer in work help when one is having personal disputes within the office.

Also, lets not forgot that the offer that is currently on the table was got by the union. Without their current interaction Im sure the offer would have been worse. But I feel where we are at now is about as good as it gets and to strike will not be of benefit and do more harm than good.

Not everything is black and white.

[jetblack]

Im in the union because I want to have the ability to have a say wether I like what they are doing or not.

And if you don't like what the majority say then you will put two fingers up to them ?
Thats not democracy mate - thats abuse. Thats an abusive relationship, if we are going to call it by its proper name - and you are the abuser. You've already said you won't strike - save us the trouble of expelling you and fall on your sword FFS

You talk about '' the union '' like it was something foreign to you, something controlled from outside. It isn't. You are the union. Take some responsibility - or be ever shat upon, and all future generations of 'urbanpirates' be shat upon, by people that really do not have your interests at heart.

The CWU WINRS proposal is a proposal that unifies pension provision for all employees - and if you are a current member of the DC scheme you have way more to benefit than the current DB scheme members. I don't know how many different ways that this fact has to be related to you before it drives home. You seem to have a blind spot.

[rogersh]

Blind spot - Pirate - I got it !

[UrbanPirate]

Im in the union because I want to have the ability to have a say wether I like what they are doing or not.

And if you don't like what the majority say then you will put two fingers up to them ?
Thats not democracy mate - thats abuse. Thats an abusive relationship, if we are going to call it by its proper name - and you are the abuser. You've already said you won't strike - save us the trouble of expelling you and fall on your sword FFS

You talk about '' the union '' like it was something foreign to you, something controlled from outside. It isn't. You are the union. Take some responsibility - or be ever shat upon, and all future generations of 'urbanpirates' be shat upon, by people that really do not have your interests at heart.

The CWU WINRS proposal is a proposal that unifies pension provision for all employees - and if you are a current member of the DC scheme you have way more to benefit than the current DB scheme members. I don't know how many different ways that this fact has to be related to you before it drives home. You seem to have a blind spot.

Can you actually hear yourself. Get a grip mate. You keep banging on about democracy but your argument to anyone that doesn't agree with you is to be purged. How very democratic.

[banner]

UrbanPirate. Can you imagine this situation? There is a vote for a strike and 55% vote yes. Now imagine the other 45% stick twos up and go into work and along with the managers and non union members that workforce will be able to shift the mail without the pipeline blocking up, albeit with the USO not being upheld. So Royal mail will be able to hold out indefinitely until the strikers are forced back to work thus undermining the democratic vote and effectively ending the legitimacy of the union going forward. So you are in favor of the union for collective bargaining purposes but don't mind undermining it when it suits?

[UrbanPirate]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

[Glenno]

UrbanPirate. Can you imagine this situation? There is a vote for a strike and 55% vote yes. Now imagine the other 45% stick twos up and go into work and along with the managers and non union members that workforce will be able to shift the mail without the pipeline blocking up, albeit with the USO not being upheld. So Royal mail will be able to hold out indefinitely until the strikers are forced back to work thus undermining the democratic vote and effectively ending the legitimacy of the union going forward. So you are in favor of the union for collective bargaining purposes but don't mind undermining it when it suits?

He probably voted NO in the Brexit Referendum also and is venting his frustrations on us all, as we all know you have the Democratic right to vote, but we also know that as a Democracy you are bound by the Majority, it's a Marmite situation

[banner]

That other 45% would be totally within their right to go in as they accept the proposals RM are offering. That is democracy. Not what is being spouted here.

That is not democracy at all. Democracy is having a democratic process and then everybody abiding by the result. Just because I didn't vote for a certain government doesn't mean i get to undermine its legitimacy if it gains a democratic mandate.
You sound like someone who only thinks that we should decide as individuals on every issue in the workplace and if so, why are you in a union? I am in a union to have a democratic say, knowing that I will abide by the majority decision even if I disagree with it and that is democracy.

[glfp]

Im in the union because I want to have the ability to have a say wether I like what they are doing or not.

And if you don't like what the majority say then you will put two fingers up to them ?
Thats not democracy mate - thats abuse. Thats an abusive relationship, if we are going to call it by its proper name - and you are the abuser. You've already said you won't strike - save us the trouble of expelling you and fall on your sword FFS

You talk about '' the union '' like it was something foreign to you, something controlled from outside. It isn't. You are the union. Take some responsibility - or be ever shat upon, and all future generations of 'urbanpirates' be shat upon, by people that really do not have your interests at heart.

The CWU WINRS proposal is a proposal that unifies pension provision for all employees - and if you are a current member of the DC scheme you have way more to benefit than the current DB scheme members. I don't know how many different ways that this fact has to be related to you before it drives home. You seem to have a blind spot.

1) Get off your high horses.
2) This is mean't to be an open forum where folk on here could express their thoughts - couldn't be more wrong !
3) CWU and Momentum are very well alligned - both seem to have a fascist socal media "only post what I agree with or be damned" attitude.
4) I resigned from the Union today !

I believe the "Urban Pirates" and myself make up a bigger part of the workforce than any of you believe - its just some make more noise than others; although most of it is just hot air.

Keep dreaming about the day Corbyn and McDonnell take control of govt and re-nationalise Royal Mail (although RM is their last priority).

Enjoy your Horlicks

Graham

[glfp]

If one of my colleagues walks across my picket line I don't think they should be expelled from my union.
Rather I think that I have failed in my role as a trade unionist to convince them that my arguments should prevail.

Rubbish.

They should be expelled. As Joan of Arc as it is of you to personally take it on the chin for the cause like that Clash, your chivalry is misplaced here old son.

The CWU and the trade union movement in general is a broad church - but first and foremost it is a democratic church.
Democracy doesn't just enshrine rights - because with those rights come responsibilities.
I don't mind putting up with teenagers that haven't quite got their head around the responsibilities side of that equation - after all, the human brain doesn't reach full maturity/development till around the age of 24 - but I'll be f****d if I'm going to carry a grown man that thinks he's being clever by skimming off the top of the sacrifice made by other men that are in exactly the same boat as he is.
I'm not only going to bring this up with the branch I may well bring it up with the Labour Party as well. Apparently the union may have grounds for expulsion under rule 14 - but then it may also be in breach of the strike breakers 'rights'. If the law is framed to protect the strike breaker in this situation then the law needs amending - and I'm sure the next Government would be more than happy to listen to questions re. the legitimacy of the legal protections offered to rogue self interested strike breakers.

The union do not own RM. That staff dont own RM. I will not be told by anyone other than my employer that im not aloud to work and even then it better be for good reason. How about we flip it and say anyone who does strike should then be fired when they eventually capitulate. Il happily be thrown out of the union if this is the attitude. Like someone said before, there are people not in the union who have whatever the union agree imposed on them wether they like it or not.

Why should I stirke, lose pay and potentially harm the business for an argument I do not believe in? For an offer than im willing to accept?

Unless of course you are all willing to strike for everyone on the DC pension to be given the same benefits being offered to pre 2008 staff? Then we can talk about solidarity.

Good point.
We should be able to take the lump sum / pay rise !