I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[BeamishStout]

@ Dingo

All of your post is spot on and could be the basis of a mailshot by CWU to those sitting on the fence. I believe what you have stated encapsulates the reasons why the staff needs to make their voice heard through the ballot box in a YES vote. I do not trust the rubbish coming from RM's media gurus posted via PDA, Courier, Mailshot , WTL etc etc. Perhaps the same media consultants were employed by the Conservatives in the last election.

[Lincox]

I think that in past strike votes there has been a reluctance on the part of many part timers to vote yes and genuinely so, and also many did not cast a vote. Looking at all of the walk outs that there has been in the past year, I believe that Royal Mail has totally changed the degree of respect that the men and women at the coal face have for their employer. I also believe that the Union hierarchy have been far more pro-active in getting the message out to the masses and in Terry Pullinger they have a man that has got his message across, and is a man that you can believe is on your side. Unlike Billy who had no idea how to communicate. I still would not forecast a landslide yes vote, but I think it will be sufficient to meet the new laws and provide a powerful hand for the union negotiators.

[Lounge Lizard]

2. Pensions - Royal Mail closed the DB scheme in 2008 and opened an unagreed DC scheme for new starters. At that stage we had been in a strike for over 8 days and some had been out unofficially. So the union did not influence the setting up of the new scheme as there were at that stage no members in the scheme. From that date the unions known only a strike would move Royal Mail on changing the DC scheme.

So when Royal Mail announced the closures of the DB scheme from 31st March 2018, they broke the legally binding agreement on executive action. Their pension offer has twice been improved due to the pressure of the union but it is still a poor scheme. For someone who was 50 and had done 30 years in the job and was in the Old POPs scheme they would lose 23% of what they would have got under the DB scheme. Additionally if you were aged 30 with 10 years service you would lose 51% of what you would have got under the DB scheme. The key here is the further you are away from pension age the harder your hit.



7. New Entrants the CWU reject a two tier workforce on worse pay , leave , no supplement , less sick pay and a default 17:00 finish.

.

Will 8 days be the limit before RM are allowed to bring in new entrants on worse conditions THIS time? Then have us all on them in future cause we were alright Jack in 2017?

Not a personal dig but its really galling I've been in a worse scheme for nearly a decade doing same job as others who will be better off

I accept you've tried to justify it and it must have been tough but it doesn't bode well for new entrants that union ( and I include members here ) decided since it didn't affect the then current workforce in 08 it wasn't worth continuing IA

AD,
Yes, you've been in a worse pension scheme for nearly a decade doing same job as others who will be better off.
And I've missed out on £6 a week driving allowance for nearly a decade doing same job as other drivers who will be better off.
That's how it is though and discussing such discrepancies is time spent not focusing on the issues that really matter to all of us at this crucial time.

[Acca Dacca]

2. Pensions - Royal Mail closed the DB scheme in 2008 and opened an unagreed DC scheme for new starters. At that stage we had been in a strike for over 8 days and some had been out unofficially. So the union did not influence the setting up of the new scheme as there were at that stage no members in the scheme. From that date the unions known only a strike would move Royal Mail on changing the DC scheme.

So when Royal Mail announced the closures of the DB scheme from 31st March 2018, they broke the legally binding agreement on executive action. Their pension offer has twice been improved due to the pressure of the union but it is still a poor scheme. For someone who was 50 and had done 30 years in the job and was in the Old POPs scheme they would lose 23% of what they would have got under the DB scheme. Additionally if you were aged 30 with 10 years service you would lose 51% of what you would have got under the DB scheme. The key here is the further you are away from pension age the harder your hit.



7. New Entrants the CWU reject a two tier workforce on worse pay , leave , no supplement , less sick pay and a default 17:00 finish.

.

Will 8 days be the limit before RM are allowed to bring in new entrants on worse conditions THIS time? Then have us all on them in future cause we were alright Jack in 2017?

Not a personal dig but its really galling I've been in a worse scheme for nearly a decade doing same job as others who will be better off

I accept you've tried to justify it and it must have been tough but it doesn't bode well for new entrants that union ( and I include members here ) decided since it didn't affect the then current workforce in 08 it wasn't worth continuing IA

AD,
Yes, you've been in a worse pension scheme for nearly a decade doing same job as others who will be better off.
And I've missed out on £6 a week driving allowance for nearly a decade doing same job as other drivers who will be better off.
That's how it is though and discussing such discrepancies is time spent not focusing on the issues that really matter to all of us at this crucial time.

You say that like hits not a big issue

Its set a precedent is my worry

RM know we will not care as much over things that don't effect us.....yet

I want reassurances we won't make same mistake again

They've already proposed not paying sick pay, different shift patterns etc for new entrants

Expect more carrots dangling and repetitions of 'effects new entrants only'

[Lounge Lizard]

2. Pensions - Royal Mail closed the DB scheme in 2008 and opened an unagreed DC scheme for new starters. At that stage we had been in a strike for over 8 days and some had been out unofficially. So the union did not influence the setting up of the new scheme as there were at that stage no members in the scheme. From that date the unions known only a strike would move Royal Mail on changing the DC scheme.

So when Royal Mail announced the closures of the DB scheme from 31st March 2018, they broke the legally binding agreement on executive action. Their pension offer has twice been improved due to the pressure of the union but it is still a poor scheme. For someone who was 50 and had done 30 years in the job and was in the Old POPs scheme they would lose 23% of what they would have got under the DB scheme. Additionally if you were aged 30 with 10 years service you would lose 51% of what you would have got under the DB scheme. The key here is the further you are away from pension age the harder your hit.



7. New Entrants the CWU reject a two tier workforce on worse pay , leave , no supplement , less sick pay and a default 17:00 finish.

.

Will 8 days be the limit before RM are allowed to bring in new entrants on worse conditions THIS time? Then have us all on them in future cause we were alright Jack in 2017?

Not a personal dig but its really galling I've been in a worse scheme for nearly a decade doing same job as others who will be better off

I accept you've tried to justify it and it must have been tough but it doesn't bode well for new entrants that union ( and I include members here ) decided since it didn't affect the then current workforce in 08 it wasn't worth continuing IA

AD,
Yes, you've been in a worse pension scheme for nearly a decade doing same job as others who will be better off.
And I've missed out on £6 a week driving allowance for nearly a decade doing same job as other drivers who will be better off.
That's how it is though and discussing such discrepancies is time spent not focusing on the issues that really matter to all of us at this crucial time.

You say that like hits not a big issue

Its set a precedent is my worry

RM know we will not care as much over things that don't effect us.....yet

I want reassurances we won't make same mistake again

They've already proposed not paying sick pay, different shift patterns etc for new entrants

Expect more carrots dangling and repetitions of 'effects new entrants only'

AD,
I was just trying to put it in perspective and, as is your prerogative, you have a different perspective on it than me.

[the beautiful bd south]

RE: Legacy payments..

I accept your point of view regarding everyone on same wage, However why should a person be forced into a pay cut through no fault of their own?
I for arguments sake would lose £30 per week (get compensated 18 months). I have potentially 24 years service left before i reach state pension age.
This payment is fully pensionable (the real reason the business wants rid IMO) so I would not only lose out on my wage but my pension too?
Luckily it seems that giving up these payments is going to be on a voluntary basis...

If the business was to do away with legacy payment then the fairest way to do this would IMO for people to tread water whilst others catch up..
Receive a lump sump payment for the pay rise they would have had..

[wacko74]

I do agree that legacy payments should be reconfigured into some kind of loyalty bonus paid to all staff, maybe based on 5, 10, 15+ years service.

[nataddick]

Beamish - I agree with you that Dingo’s latest post provides a timely and meaningful insight into what is really going on behind the scenes and should form the basis of a future CWU Bulletin. I think the Legal Guarantees are meant to be until 2022 not 2222, so an edit may be needed but I understand that Dingo probably ‘knocked’ the post out quickly without time for a final edit. We have all done the same.

I voted Yes on Saturday and posted it based upon my own assessment of the situation. Dingo, your post as always provides additional information that really helps to inform those that use these forums and provides an additional dimension to the RM v CWU propaganda. Although,you have not posted much lately, many of us rely on your updates which cut through the
crap and illuminate! Great post and much appreciated.

[Dorset Plodder]

well lets respond to this constructivley

Bet you're glad you got that off your chest mate? I did in fact read it all and a lot of valid points were made. Worrying times for all of us. I'm just concerned that so many of our colleagues seem to be so short-sighted. Going back to the original poster's comments: I feel moving to a 9-5 job just undermines what the majority of Posties want from this job, and as for changing the fact that I will no longer be 30% worse of in my Pension... I'll now ONLY be 17% worse off ....that is truly Shite!

[Dorset Plodder]

I've been in the game far too long to underestimate anybody but there's also a danger in overthinking every situation, RM believe that they can undermine the union's position and weaken its negotiating strength. They have spent a lot of money and hired strategists to do just that. Nobody does that if they believe a YES vote is inevitable. That makes no sense at all.

Brilliant Strategy by the CWU this time. Just make sure the ballot papers turn up BEFORE the Royal mail Bullshit! My Ballot paper was marked and returned several days before I started to receive RM's propaganda .... slipped up there boys.

[sweepster70]

I do agree that legacy payments should be reconfigured into some kind of loyalty bonus paid to all staff, maybe based on 5, 10, 15+ years service.

Legacy payments were negotiated between the Union and Royal Mail to compensate those people. It has nothing to do with us, why should we benefit?
It's like trying to change a democratic decision because it doesn't suit you.

[postslippete]

I think some people are getting confused between what the job is not and what Royal Mail will make it if they have free reign. I feel this really is an all or nothing situation with a yes vote giving potential for a decent outcome for the customer, the postie and the company. A no has no good potential outcome for any of those groups, only share holders and directors.

Unfortunately we don't own the business so the job is what RM tell us it is. Yes, they should respect the employees but its a two way street. Allot of people want to have the cake and eat it. The world and industry has changed. Its highly competitive now (We no longer hold an monopoly) and packets is where the money is. It makes total sense to restructure the pipeline to take maximum advantage of this. The DB pension is unaffordable. When companies let their pensions run away with themselves it can end them!

Given the situation we find ourselves in I do agree we now have to return a convincing yes vote. As said before though, this will not be the magic bullet people think it will be. RM already know it will be a big yes. They know staff were always going to oppose these changes. But yet, here we are. WHY???? What do you think is going to happen. RM will fight us on this. Its a fight they will win. The union and staff need to get realistic with what they want and pick a battle they can win and make a decent compromise.

We are all shareholders now, so why shouldn't we have a say in the running of the business? You mention that its a two way street - so why aren't they listening to us instead of blitzing us all with letters and messages on our PDAs that tell us all how we should vote?

As far as I'm concerned the only people who want to have their cake and eat it are the bosses who run Royal Mail, not the loyal staff who are working harder than ever indoors, with Royal Mail's Indoor Work Plans, and outdoors with additional loops on frames, extra parcels to deliver, collections on deliver, and then lapsing on top! The world and industry has changed - so much so that Royal Mail now makes a healthy profit!! - something which they never did when the company was run years ago as a public service.

Also, you mention that packets is where the money is. Well, if that was the case then why have RM invested millions of pounds into sequencing machines and letters coming through into buddy trays?? The letters business is still important to Royal Mail's bottom line, just as much as packets are. It only makes total sense in re-structuring the pipeline for Royal Mail because it means that they will make even bigger profits as they can cut down on all our indoor sorting. What that means are bigger outdoor deliveries for all us and delivering later. For a lump sum of £375 I think that is absolutely pathetic - especially when the company will be saving millions of pounds in giving us a worst pension as well when we come to retire.

[Lincox]

This is the reason Urban Pirate is so far adrift with his take on this. There is no pay rise. There is £375 to offset a tiny piece of the huge reduction you are being asked to take in your overall employment package, and you are being asked to commit to a job where you have no idea what your finish time will be. If that is not a reason to strike for a better outcome I don't know what is.

[UrbanPirate]

This is the reason Urban Pirate is so far adrift with his take on this. There is no pay rise. There is £375 to offset a tiny piece of the huge reduction you are being asked to take in your overall employment package, and you are being asked to commit to a job where you have no idea what your finish time will be. If that is not a reason to strike for a better outcome I don't know what is.

As for what the person above said about being a shareholder. Yeh we are shareholders who deserve a say in how the business is run. But as a collective we hold a minority stake. Probably greatly diminished as allot of people sold their initial batch already. WE DO NOT OWN THE BUSINESS! There also seems to be people who begrudge RM for making profits and wanting to make even bigger profits. Businesses exist to make profits and its their prerogative to increase profits if they can and RM can by doing what they propose. What RM isn't is a charity that purely exists to offer you employment. I do agree that they could and perhaps should offer a better pay package considering profits. But are these profits promised year on year? Who knows as its to early to tell. So it would be silly for RM to offer such a thing based on very little info.

The pay offer is reasonable. I even said i suspect a final offer will be slightly better but not greatly. Times have changed, the job must change. Im not saying I like any of what is happening but I am being a realists.

Ultimately its this. Its about leverage. We have very little. Dont like it? Go elsewhere then? Oh, you cant find anywhere that will A. employ you, and B. offer you anything close to what RM are offering? RM management know this and they know they will crush any rebellion as people will be forced to trickle back to work and except these changes.

They couldn't care less if you like it or not. The big bad world doesn't care about your feelings. All this crying about what the job used to be and what it will become. Cold hard truth is the majority are wholly replaceable fairly easily. So il stick with my original post. What they are offering is reasonable.

[glfp]

This is the reason Urban Pirate is so far adrift with his take on this. There is no pay rise. There is £375 to offset a tiny piece of the huge reduction you are being asked to take in your overall employment package, and you are being asked to commit to a job where you have no idea what your finish time will be. If that is not a reason to strike for a better outcome I don't know what is.

I agree and urban Pirate is a RM Troll, 1st class, gold medal, Moyà bitch.

Classy. Calling people names on the internet make you feel hard mate?

As for what the person above said about being a shareholder. Yeh we are shareholders who deserve a say in how the business is run. But as a collective we hold a minority stake. Probably greatly diminished as allot of people sold their initial batch already. WE DO NOT OWN THE BUSINESS! There also seems to be people who begrudge RM for making profits and wanting to make even bigger profits. Businesses exist to make profits and its their prerogative to increase profits if they can and RM can by doing what they propose. What RM isn't is a charity that purely exists to offer you employment. I do agree that they could and perhaps should offer a better pay package considering profits. But are these profits promised year on year? Who knows as its to early to tell. So it would be silly for RM to offer such a thing based on very little info.

The pay offer is reasonable. I even said i suspect a final offer will be slightly better but not greatly. Times have changed, the job must change. Im not saying I like any of what is happening but I am being a realists.

Ultimately its this. Its about leverage. We have very little. Dont like it? Go elsewhere then? Oh, you cant find anywhere that will A. employ you, and B. offer you anything close to what RM are offering? RM management know this and they know they will crush any rebellion as people will be forced to trickle back to work and except these changes.

They couldn't care less if you like it or not. The big bad world doesn't care about your feelings. All this crying about what the job used to be and what it will become. Cold hard truth is the majority are wholly replaceable fairly easily. So il stick with my original post. What they are offering is reasonable.

Can't say I disagree with any of this either.
I'm a current employee.
Royal Mail made 335 million profits ( the 700 is Royal Mail Group inc GLS etc)
335 million profit for a company as large as RM with such a huge network and 50% of the parcels market share is actually pretty poor.
When you joined the company you didn't sign up for life.
The world is ever changing and the CWU and many of the workforce are simply living in the past.

I voted NO and nothing anyone has written on this message board has made me even have a second thought.

I feel Terry Pullinger is leading his members into a battle that will not be won.

I feel Royal Mail will fully utilize a strike around christmas.
1) The public will turn against us.
2) Royal Mail will say any agreement we had has ended with strike action.

Remember 2008 - as Dingo said because you had gone out for 8 !!!!! days the CWU felt there was no appetite left to challenge RM over stitching up post 2008 employees pensions.

Be prepared for going on strike and coming back in to changes.
Pipeline will move.

The business will start to be broken up, or has been hinted by CWU, Royal Mail will use their huge cash flow to buy up some parcel companies and scale down this business = job losses.

I do actually understand where RM are coming from.

What can they do if the workforce and the union refuse to accept changes to the pipeine ?
Back down - that would be a very weak company.

No - any company will find another way.

Royal Mail will find another way - with or without you.
And please, please stop this "customers want there mail in the morning" talk - the bulk of them don't care.
Letters are an ever decreasing necessity now - packets are the future.

There are thousands of couriers working for companies on inferior terms to RM employees that will jump at delivering parcels for Royal Mail
Ever thought of that.
Strike at chtistmas and they probably will.

Get on with it or leave. Stark, cold reality.

ATB
Graham