propaganda bombardment

[Tman]

No doubt the same logic was used when the Bulldozer was invented; "but that's twelve blokes with shovels out of work".
All nonsense of course. RM's had automation since the 1960s and that'll only carry on.
The old Communist Bloc was good at job invention to ensure full employment, and look how that turned out.

[postslippete]

I'm not against Royal Mail investing in automation because it makes us more efficient as a company BUT you go ask your fellow colleagues if you think that its progress when the company then want us all to go out and work bigger duties and/or increased workloads in a 6 or 7 hour delivery outdoor spans and you might get a different response.

[DGH]

No doubt the same logic was used when the Bulldozer was invented; "but that's twelve blokes with shovels out of work".
All nonsense of course. RM's had automation since the 1960s and that'll only carry on.
The old Communist Bloc was good at job invention to ensure full employment, and look how that turned out.

No, that's not what I was saying, and well you know it.

There is no real problem primae facie with people being put out of work because of automation. There is a huge problem with people being made worse due to being put out of work (or on reduced hours/reduced pay) due to automation. Even you must be able to see that.

[Tman]

There is no real problem primae facie with people being put out of work because of automation. There is a huge problem with people being made worse due to being put out of work

"Even me" can see that you've said two contradictory consecutive sentences.
I have no idea what you're on about. So is it a "huge problem" or "no real problem"?
Either way, it's not going to go away...

[IloveMYredTROLLEY!]

RM got tactical today...

A new character in WTLL, all softly spoken and seemed quite reserved, reading the script to tell us to vote no in the ballet!

[DGH]

There is no real problem primae facie with people being put out of work because of automation. There is a huge problem with people being made worse due to being put out of work

"Even me" can see that you've said two contradictory consecutive sentences.
I have no idea what you're on about. So is it a "huge problem" or "no real problem"?
Either way, it's not going to go away...

Not really.

If you are put out of work because a machine does your job but another job is available that is as well paid or better then you are not worse off financially.
Equally if you are put out of work by automation but are near retirement age, have a decent pension to draw upon and receive enough money to ease you through the 'gap years' then you're not worse off.

However if you are put out of work due to automation at a relatively young age and comparable jobs no longer exist, or are in too short supply for you to get one, and society doesn't see fit to mitigate your circumstances to any meaningful degree, then you are obviously materially worse off.

[Tman]

So your point is that there is no moral argument against automation, merely whether the individual can survive financially?
And who's to decide whether any individual can or cannot survive? You?-

[LaggyBand]

The problem is , the planet needs a revision.

We have technology that could free lots of humans from tedious labour.

But because we need bits of paper, or even digits on a screen, we see this technology as a threat to our survival.

We are begging to continue our tedious labour.

Aliens must think we are proper mad.

[genesis]

No doubt the same logic was used when the Bulldozer was invented; "but that's twelve blokes with shovels out of work".
All nonsense of course. RM's had automation since the 1960s and that'll only carry on.
The old Communist Bloc was good at job invention to ensure full employment, and look how that turned out.

What you should remember is the government lent the money to enable royal mail to purchase these machines, when it was still publicly owned.
Thus setting it up for privatisation .
Conclusion- Public investment for Private gain. (It should be called Piratisation)

[Tman]

What, they envisaged RM privatisation back in the late 1960s?

[Interested-seeker]

="Interested-seeker expense of the working class, e.g. using automation to replace employees

That's what happens, it's called progress...unless you're some sort of Luddite?

No. Progress is an improvement in condition. Automation may improve conditions, it may not. Nobody, surely, would argue that someone made redundant and put on benefits by automation has improved their condition.

Automation can improve things by making dangerous or tedious jobs unnecessary of course, and/or by improving efficiency, resulting in greater productivity. But if the wealth created by that is concentrated largely in the hands of a few, that is hardly progress . . . unless you're some sort of Social Darwinist.

[Chimps_tea_party]

="Interested-seeker expense of the working class, e.g. using automation to replace employees

That's what happens, it's called progress...unless you're some sort of Luddite?

Cold comfort when you're trotting down to the dole office.

[Tman]

You'd be a lot colder if the mass-production of clothes, cars etc hadn't been automated and people still had to pay the prices for hand-made stuff, plus food, drugs, electronics, furniture etc would all be unaffordable to the average worker.
That's the problem with the one-perspective that is Luddism.

[Chimps_tea_party]

You'd be a lot colder if the mass-production of clothes, cars etc hadn't been automated and people still had to pay the prices for hand-made stuff, plus food, drugs, electronics, furniture etc would all be unaffordable to the average worker.
That's the problem with the one-perspective that is Luddism.

Even more unaffordable if you have no job.

[Tman]

Dead right, so anything which makes things less unaffordable for the jobless must be a good thing.